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Concours or not?

8K views 52 replies 26 participants last post by  slim 
#1 ·
I have an X-code GT/CS and wondering what most of you would do with a restoration - concours or if the value/uniqueness isn't enough to justify the cost for concours?
 
#2 ·
me imo I dont think concours anything is worth it.
you see some cars at shows that didnt come from the factory looking that perfect.

ya know the guys with the mirrors underneath and flag poles around the car with 9 signs that say keep back 200 feet.


a decent restoration for a street driven class car is enuf for me
 
#3 ·
I think very few Mustangs can fully justify the cost of a Concours restoration: Shelby, Boss, big block Mach 1 and a few others. But based on the prices I've seen for the CS Mustangs, no. The potential selling price would not justify the cost of a Concours restoration.

Of course, almost everyone on this forum has spent more on their cars than the selling price could justify. So, it's purely up to you. If you really want a Councours California Special, go for it! Just don't expect to recoup the investment should you sell it. :)
 
#4 ·
It is really all personal opinion but,

These cars were mass produced just like the ramblers of the day.......many of which were delivered to dealers with trunk lids placed in the back seats because the panel alignments were so bad the factory could not easily fit so the dealers had to install......and back then, the dealers had a pre-approved budget & fixed things like this almost routinely.

Up through the 60's & early 70's, vehicles were not ordered as they are today. Yes, if you ordered package "X" it would come with 1, 2, 3.....but, you could also delete specific items within the package. As an example, our mustang (which has been in the family since it was new), when ordered as a GT, my parents really didn't like "trumpet tips" through the rear pan so the dual exhaust was a "delete" (as shown on the original order papers which we still have) and upon delivery, it was off to the muffler shop for a set of pipes.......a very common practice- which because of this it is not impossible, but I will say it is much more "challenging" to not so much verify something is a factory GT by having all of the items listed, but more difficult to verify it is not..and Ford was not the only one doing this either, a very common practice by the Big 3.

My neighbor worked for GM in Long Beach, Ca back in the 70's, and clearly recalls special order deletes, hand carried orders to install "X" cylinder head on a particular car- he also recalls there was seldom more than a week went by that the cylinder heads didn't change (as far as port matching/sizing/shape)- as it was all dependent on the supplier and that varied by each shipment….or someone wanted their pickup painted the color that was offered on a particular car…..not a problem as long as it was built at the same plant (for an extra charge of course)- which also explains a few very, very ID pates.

While it is a wonderful thing to have a variety of people who have done such exhaustive research on these and other vehicles, and granted, the GT/CS packages were more "standardized" we must also remember that the customer service and deliverables of the time were much, much different than today and paperwork, was, well, not the focus. This has lead to benefit us (especially in Calif) who became exempted from smog testing/cert because of the absence (disposal/non-retention) of documentation of our cars, but in all reality, even if all the paperwork did exist, it wouldn't do little to validate much more than is known today about the cars- because the paperwork was not a priority, delivering what the customer wanted was.

IMHO, if you have the $ and it's burning a hole in your pocket to create a "concours restoration", that's fine, if you just want to do a ground up rebuild, that is certainly appropriate as well. Some will grin, some will sneer......but it's all OK in my book- whatever "makes you happy"!
 
#5 · (Edited)
I believe that these cars beg to be modifided and it's up to the owner as to how mild or wild they will go. I prefer subtil changes that the factory could or should have done either back in the day or if the ar were still in production today.
(I'm referring to if the classics 65 thru 73 were still in production).

There is something to be said for a concours restoration, but as mentoned before, it can be expensive undertaking.

I say modify.

If you went to an all mustang show with 100 cars, more than likely you would not find 2 that are exactly alike even if all 100 were the same color.

mxg30 :)
 
#6 ·
Further, as one poster pointed out to me: it's my car, do what I want with it. It can always be put back to form as you see so many on this forum doing with rusted purchases. From the purist perspective, which I support way too much, most Mustangs purchased today have been monkeyed with. This could include removal of resonators, body repairs from accidents, replacement parts from aftermarket, non Ford suppliers, and high school mods performed in the 70's and 80's. All this tends to make the car difficult and expensive to make Concours ready. Also, how can you justify to your wife that you have a $75K piece of art in the garage that can't be let into the house for her tea party to look at, won't sell but for $45K and can't drive to the supermarket for goodness sakes!
 
#8 ·
My idea would be to start with the stuff that need to be done and that in concours quality and when you like the concours idea in 1 or 2 years like today make it further.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Where do I begin?
First off, Concours is more than a new paint job and replacing the faded carpet. Go look at a new a car in a show room. Open the hood. THAT is the standard. The restored car is supposed to look like the first day the new owner drove it off the dealers lot. So, I can understand why others would rather drive and modify their cars.
And, its heartbreaking. Some part you just bought a couple of months prior is now obsolete because somebody now produces a more correct part. And there is the constant NOS-Factory installed-Ford Service parts- Reproduction - correct reproduction, refurbished thing. Choose your parts wisely because there are judges that study this. No, they live it.
And, nobody is winning any huge money doing Concours. It is more of a personal satisfaction thing.
OK, you have an X code 68 GT/California special. I would be surprised for see if more than 5 were built. Likely yours could be the only one. It would be nice to see it correctly restored, that will be up to you. I see you have 4 other 67's/68's. Many of us have more than one Mustang. It's nice to have a restored un-modified one. And god bless those who restore a Mustang that might never repay them in money. They also get their own satifaction out of it for whatever reason.
 
#10 ·
I question but have no way to prove...some came from the factory with trunk lid in the back seat area. AFAIK the body was painted with the trunk lid and doors installed.

So the unpainted lid would have been in the back seat?


Slim
 
#15 · (Edited by Moderator)
In some cases yes....my neighbor has pics of Nova's from Long Beach (IIRR) with side windows so far out of adjustment they could not be rolled up...so they wrapped the open area & shipped as is....
Dealers typically had a budget of $300 per car (remind you the cars only sold for up to 2K new) from the factory for authorized repairs...it was not considered unusual for a dealer to almost have to "rebuild" a car back in the day.

Heck in 1985, my dad ordered a new F150 (from a dealer our family had bought from for years)......12 weeks later it came in...the dealer called me because he really didn't want to tell my dad, but despite the order sheet, it had wrong differential, stereo, AC compressor was there but just resting on the fender held with plastic, the wrong mirrors (with 3 extra pre-drilled holes in the doors, it was a 50's style bed, and the sheetmetal extensions that are installed on the outside lower corners on the back of the cab were unpainted and placed on the passenger floor, mis-matched bumpers (the rear was actually for an F250- and I won't even go into detail on the bumper brackets), the cab was dented (golf ball size -2 dents if I remember correctly).

Ford could also not locate any truck close to the build spec...so they asked what I thought my dad would want to do......

They then called my dad to affirm but Ford shipped 2 F150's to the dealer who literally tore the original truck apart, repainted the entire truck, pieced together the truck from the 2 others ....and 5 weeks later the truck was delivered to my dad's house.
 
#11 ·
Honestly, it's your car, do what makes you happy.

If you like painstaking attention to detail and something that will sit in your garage most of the time, go concours.

If you want to drive you car 5-10k miles a year like me, make it your own. My personal approach was to keep the outside and visible interior looking almost stock, as the lines of these cars is nearly perfect as is, and then I made the car run and handle how I wanted it to. EFI, disc brakes, T5 transmission, etc.

Let's face it, and I mean no disrespect, but these cars were borderline POS's when they rolled off the line. I would argue most concours restorations are more what the factory was hoping for, not what actually came out.

But generally doing any work on theses cars is a money losing proposition. As far as which has the most value, it's going to totally depend on the buyer. If I was looking at the car, I wouldn't pay extra for a concours restoration, but that's because I always look for cars I can drive and have fun in. But if you modify it, then someone looking to do a concours won't factor in extra value because it's not what they want.

Personally, I like to see modified CS's. I think my next mustang project will actually be a CS clone.
 
#13 ·
Reasons to do a concours resto:

1) The car is desirable (RARE DOES NOT = DESIRABLE!!!!!!!!!) and will be worth far more that way.
2) You really, really, really are in love with the specific car for whatever reason (like your dad had one, you used to have one, you always wanted one, you saw it in a magazine when your were 13, etc. etc. etc.) and you just have to have that car exactly as you first saw it. Most people aren't in love with a 390 2V Mustang... Just saying.
3) You see doing it as a challenge that interests you.

That's it. There's no other reasons to. You can do a near concours resto on the mechanics and get the full driving experience, if that's what you're into, without doing every nitpicky thing. So the driving experience isn't a reason.
 
#14 ·
I know there's at least one restored to concours-trailered standards. I judged it at the Utah National last year.
 
#16 ·
Was there a Mustang Nova? Yes I know the answer!!
 
#18 ·
LOL! That one I don't know about but the Big 3 have done some different things through the years.....
Remember the "Ford Ranger Shadow"........
Intermittently produced in 1983-1992- it had a fiberglass stepside box in place of the fleetside- yet it is not listed in any Ford document! Total production IIRR was less than 2 dozen.
 
#17 ·
Oh one more thing I would like to add............as long as you don't "hack up the car", meaning doing mods that literally or nearly inhibit the ability to return the vehicle back to its original oem state, especially with a limited production car, no one (except the "snobs") will hold that against you or even detract from it's potential value.
 
#19 ·
I would ask, how close are you now to concourse. I mean having all the correct, expensive, hard to get parts (engine, trans, rear, fuel pump, windshield, it adds up, etc.) If you are most of the way there, it would be an easier decision. If you're a long way off, then maybe not.
 
#22 ·
when it comes to classic cars, its for tge love not the money, so ignore every attempt of someone saying its way too expensive, etc... modified cars that are truely modified and not just dressed up cost much more to produce if you are paying someone to do the work. everything costs money...

have you got patience? can you wait to drive your car? this is probably the hardest part of a concours resto. I know maby people who have modified their mustangs just to get them on tge road fast. is this the ideal way to go? maybe for them.

my road to concours started 4yrs ago, and other than a house full of Old parts that have accumilated in need of restoring, you would hardly believe I have started work on my car at all... I do not care what people think, I know im nuts for my car.

if you are patient, I recommend it. its an awesome ride. you meet very knowledgable people and develope a very acute eye for detail.

I wouldnt do it any other way. if you want to go that way, dont let anyone convince you otherwise.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Good Grief, I don't think there are anyone here on this thread knows what concours means.

NO, it doesn't mean all numbers matching parts, and NO, it don't mean all the parts will be expensive, etc,etc,....I'm not going into detail tonight, too late.

Go to the MCA website: www.mustang.org. Go under "Judging", (No, you don't have to be a member"), and click and go under any years concours and "read" the judging rules.

All you will have to do is read, and you might learn something.
 
#24 ·
Go to the MCA website: www.mustang.org. Go under "Judging", (No, you don't have to be a member"), and click and go under any years concours and "read" the judging rules.

All you will have to do is read, and you might learn something.
I'm not seeing any judging rules (perhaps I can't follow instructions) you are referring too. I downloaded sheets from several years ago (they were pretty limited) when I was a member and want to see if they have been updated.

I see the judging tab, but don't see anything concours under that.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Looks like you have a few nice Mustangs, so I'm sure you have a good idea where you're headed with this. But IMO, never been impressed with the stock GT/CS styling...I'd create a subtly modified GT/CS and you'll get more looks and have more fun.
 
#30 ·
Although we don't look for numbers matching generally in the concours classes, we do check date codes in concours, when possible. And, the Thoroughbred and Unrestored classes are checked in detail for date codes, and for those few parts that would be number matching.
 
#35 ·
Although we don't look for numbers matching generally in the concours classes, we do check date codes in concours, when possible. And, the Thoroughbred and Unrestored classes are checked in detail for date codes, and for those few parts that would be number matching.
If someone purposely put a date coded part on a concours Mustang, let's say for instance, putting a date coded '67 part on a '70 Mustang, that would be alarm to maybe deduct in that area or at least write a comment in the box with no deduction and let the owner know of the incorrect date.

Although, the part has the fit, finish and appearance between the two years in question ('67 and '70), the date codes do have to match pretty close to the build date of the Mustang.

A lot of reproduction parts are date coded and the numbers match the original parts, so be careful in choosing parts with repo vendors and ask them for correct date codes, IF the repo parts your selecting even have date codes, some don't and that won't matter in concours.

That brings to mind a few years back, I was judging with another judge in the '69-'70 concours Mustangs. The guy had a nice '70 mach1 351 Mustang. Everything under the hood, so far, was correct and the fit, finish and appearance looked concours correct, under closer inspection, I noticed, just at a glance, the alternator numbers weren't right. He had a C6AF-10300 stamped alternator when he should've had a D0AF-10300. That was cause for us to write a comment in the box, but we did let him know. We did not deduct any points though
 
#31 ·
How far do you go in judging, I've seen posts about the, "correct" way to shoot overspray. :shocked:
 
#32 ·
How far do you go in judging, I've seen posts about the, "correct" way to shoot overspray. :shocked:
I went for several years with just red oxide on my undercarriage, Had no points ever deducted for no overspray, although on occasion a judge would write it in the comment box, but no points were deducted.

Since then, I have added overspray.

But, now I'm in the Conservator class, so, don't worry about it too much now:)
 
#34 ·
It is your car, do what makes you happy. I like both. Restored and modified mustangs. I don't see the harm in modifying mustangs. There are a few rare mustangs I personally would not alter. Sounds like you have a very nice car.
 
#36 · (Edited)
I think the car in question would be a good candidate for a concours-correct resto, and I don't necessarily subscribe to the notion that it's a ton-more-expensive to go that route..

That comes down to the question of what you CONSIDER to be a "restoration"... Of any type, be it resto-mod, "driver" or concours..

When I think of a restoration, there's not a single part that doesn't get removed, replaced, rebuilt or refinished, such that the finished product is fully-rebuilt and ready for a good bit of service.

From that point, whether you drive it and enjoy it or whether you let it sit mostly in the garage and show it occasionally is purely a matter of prerogative.

There's no flipping rule that says you can't drive a concours-restored car. I do it weekly.

And I think it's nonsense to think that you have to modify all of the systems in the car to make it "driveable".. These cars drove GREAT when they were new.

I truly believe that it's cars that are cobbled, poorly-done and out-of-spec that fuel this hobby-wide sense of urgency to toss all the Ford engineered stuff aside for aftermarket solutions.

Myself, I like the time-machine experience with old cars. But I digress, because what makes me happy doesn't have to please the next guy...

Any-hoo, what my point is, is that if you're going to DO THE CAR, it doesn't cost all that much different to do it concours. More labor? Yes... More money? yes, but not to some huge excess.

And phooey to the notion that once it's done, you can't drive it... If you restored it well, the car should drive like a dream, everything that gets dirty can be cleaned right back up with a bit of elbow-grease, and stock Mustangs that are properly-sorted do just fine out there dicing it up with modern traffic.

Heck, I drove a concours '55 Oldsmobile to work today, via dropping my daughter off at school... A stock mustang is like a moon-buggy compared to 50's mechanicals. :)

Build it the way you like it, but don't allow people to scare you off of a concours job by saying you can't drive it that way. My dad concours-restored a 1956 T-bird for one of his best friends back in 1981... And the guy has been driving it regularly ever since, and he drives it to every show he goes to, criss-crossing the entire U.S. (and he drives it unusually fast, triple-digit speeds in a '56 'Bird when he thinks the cops aren't looking)...

The car is still winning shows, and still looks dynamite. He must have put 60K-80K miles on it over all these years. It's a matter of care, and quality of original restoration, that's all.
 
#39 ·
There's no flipping rule that says you can't drive a concours-restored car. I do it weekly..........

And phooey to the notion that once it's done, you can't drive it... If you restored it well, the car should drive like a dream, everything that gets dirty can be cleaned right back up with a bit of elbow-grease...........
Yes, I failed to mention, our '69 Mach1 was in the MCA concours "Driven" class, for several years, but finally made it into the conservator class. Yep, drive it about 800-1000 miles a year (weather permitting), and yes, I've been caught in the rain more times than once.

I agree with 69bossnine, everything that gets dirty will clean up with a little elbow grease.
 
#42 ·
In my opinion, car shows are about the cars, not about stroking the egos of the owners, whether they're looking for an ego-stroke for their bloodied knuckles, or an ego-stroke for their check-writing prowess. Both ends of the spectrum have that ugly side of seeking recognition and envy.

I just enjoy the cars. And if the owner is a friendly fellow, I really could care less what mix of involvement he had. He's/she's enjoying the hobby, and that's what matters.

My father often shows cars that he paid to have restored. And he is eager and forthright to credit the restorer. But if you didn't know him, and you pigeonholed him as a guy "basking in the glow", you'd not know the reality that he could restore circles around most restorers, do all the machine work himself, all the welding, fabrication and bodywork himself, and all the other trades as well...

Tossing out an arbitrary yard-stick of what the "measure" or "worthiness" of a car owner is, is divisive and dangerous.

Call a guy out if he's acting snobbish and attention-crazed. But not just because he paid to have his car restored.

There's nothing wrong with the show circuit. It's all how you choose to perceive things. Snobbish or poor-behaving people exist in all realms. There are plenty of people who show their cars for all the wrong reasons, and equally many who "don't show" for all the wrong reasons.
 
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