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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 09:43 PM Thread Starter
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This just facinates me...

....for some dang reason. How on earth does using aluminum foil and placing cheese toast on it, manage to toast the bread and melt the cheese nicely....and I can just reach in an grab the foil with a couple of fingers and not get burned? Somehow the aluminum transfers the heat but yet not so much as it can still be picked up. Thermodynamics? I have to be careful not to place fingers under the object (cheese toast) as that area is very hot. But the peripheral of the foil is not. For those uneducated single guys (when you get a partner) do not....I repeat, do not put cheese toast in the oven without something under it. Your significant other, aka red head swmbo for me, will yell and raise he** about cheese getting into the bottom of said oven. Not a happy experience when I was much much younger. And, don't ever say, "Whats the big deal?". That will be immediately proceeded by more yelling and not getting "lucky" for at least a week.....or longer.
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by gwstang View Post
....for some dang reason. How on earth does using aluminum foil and placing cheese toast on it, manage to toast the bread and melt the cheese nicely....and I can just reach in an grab the foil with a couple of fingers and not get burned? Somehow the aluminum transfers the heat but yet not so much as it can still be picked up. Thermodynamics? I have to be careful not to place fingers under the object (cheese toast) as that area is very hot. But the peripheral of the foil is not. For those uneducated single guys (when you get a partner) do not....I repeat, do not put cheese toast in the oven without something under it. Your significant other, aka red head swmbo for me, will yell and raise he** about cheese getting into the bottom of said oven. Not a happy experience when I was much much younger. And, don't ever say, "Whats the big deal?". That will be immediately proceeded by more yelling and not getting "lucky" for at least a week.....or longer.
A) Because untouched by anything foreign that will retain heat, the aluminum foil doesn't retain heat well itself, very little.

B) They don't call them "Fiery Redheads" without reason, and the "make-up sex" is reportedly worth it.
C) What's the big deal?
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 10:44 PM
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Foil? Under cheese toast? The heck you say. Never occurred to me in some 40 years of cheese toasting. I consider myself pretty facile at swooping said toast off the grates and onto waiting plate with nary a burnt bare fingertip. Coincidentally cheese toast and soup were my self-made supper tonight and she never said a word.
Wait. I've heard vague noises of a new stove (which I could care less about) to match the newer fridge (that I actually like). Could this be part of a scheme? Stinky smoking stove that sets off the smoke alarm every time you use it...damn. It is a scheme, isn't it? Hmmm. My Christmas apple pie always gorps a bit down in the oven and for the first time ever she failed to rake me over the coals about it. Yep. Might as well go ahead and dust the old Home Depot card off now.
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 05:12 AM Thread Starter
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A) Because untouched by anything foreign that will retain heat, the aluminum foil doesn't retain heat well itself, very little.

B) They don't call them "Fiery Redheads" without reason, and the "make-up sex" is reportedly worth it.
C) What's the big deal?
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 05:15 AM Thread Starter
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Foil? Under cheese toast? The heck you say. Never occurred to me in some 40 years of cheese toasting. I consider myself pretty facile at swooping said toast off the grates and onto waiting plate with nary a burnt bare fingertip. Coincidentally cheese toast and soup were my self-made supper tonight and she never said a word.
Wait. I've heard vague noises of a new stove (which I could care less about) to match the newer fridge (that I actually like). Could this be part of a scheme? Stinky smoking stove that sets off the smoke alarm every time you use it...damn. It is a scheme, isn't it? Hmmm. My Christmas apple pie always gorps a bit down in the oven and for the first time ever she failed to rake me over the coals about it. Yep. Might as well go ahead and dust the old Home Depot card off now.
Fess up...you were really baking powder coated car parts in there.

Damn, the first time she caught me using the frigging dishwasher to clean up a few parts.
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 08:14 AM
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 07:46 PM
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This may help you:

Heat Capacity

s = Q / M Delta T

s = specific heat capacity (sometimes represented by the letter c, or Cs)
q = heat
m = mass
Δ T = change in temperature

Basically, what is the CAPACITY of something to hold heat (cause a change in temperature)

Here are some examples, measured in Joules per Gram per degree C

Air *1.01
Aluminum *0.902
Copper *0.385
Gold *0.129
Iron *0.450
Ice *2.03
Water 4.179
Wood 1.76
Concrete 0.88
Glass 0.84
Water 4.1

Next is heat transfer rate, how quickly something can "move" heat

Gold very high, asbestos very low

Last is the thermal mass of the item: Bar of gold: High, Aluminum foll: Low Air: Very Low

So, aluminum can heat up easily, transfers heat quickly, but has low mass.

Imagine heat as Dollars.

The aluminum can accept dollars quickly from the oven, and can give the dollars to a customer (you) quickly, but since it is foil, it has a tiny bank account, so while it can had it out quickly, it goes broke (feels cool to the touch) very quickly.

Try the same thing with a iron bar the same temperature, and you have burned fingers.

This is why you can stick you hand into a 500 degree over for a short time, but you will be instantly badly burned by touching a 500 degree block of copper.

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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 09:23 PM
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Also makes a great hat...
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangerbob1 View Post
This may help you:

Heat Capacity

s = Q / M Delta T

s = specific heat capacity (sometimes represented by the letter c, or Cs)
q = heat
m = mass
Δ T = change in temperature

Basically, what is the CAPACITY of something to hold heat (cause a change in temperature)

Here are some examples, measured in Joules per Gram per degree C

Air *1.01
Aluminum *0.902
Copper *0.385
Gold *0.129
Iron *0.450
Ice *2.03
Water 4.179
Wood 1.76
Concrete 0.88
Glass 0.84
Water 4.1

Next is heat transfer rate, how quickly something can "move" heat

Gold very high, asbestos very low

Last is the thermal mass of the item: Bar of gold: High, Aluminum foll: Low Air: Very Low

So, aluminum can heat up easily, transfers heat quickly, but has low mass.

Imagine heat as Dollars.

The aluminum can accept dollars quickly from the oven, and can give the dollars to a customer (you) quickly, but since it is foil, it has a tiny bank account, so while it can had it out quickly, it goes broke (feels cool to the touch) very quickly.

Try the same thing with a iron bar the same temperature, and you have burned fingers.

This is why you can stick you hand into a 500 degree over for a short time, but you will be instantly badly burned by touching a 500 degree block of copper.
Why not use aluminum for something like a cpu in a computer (Instead of gold or whatever they use)? It seems heat is what messes up the cpu. This is getting really interesting and thanks for all the co-efficient figures. I would think that air would take much longer to cool down as when swmbo turns the dad gum heat way up because she is "freezing"....when it's already 75F in the house, sure seems to take a long time to drop back (after I sneakily ease it back down....have to be covert because she usually has one of the chihuahuas posted to guard it)
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangerbob1 View Post
This may help you:

Heat Capacity

s = Q / M Delta T

s = specific heat capacity (sometimes represented by the letter c, or Cs)
q = heat
m = mass
Δ T = change in temperature

Basically, what is the CAPACITY of something to hold heat (cause a change in temperature)

Here are some examples, measured in Joules per Gram per degree C

Air *1.01
Aluminum *0.902
Copper *0.385
Gold *0.129
Iron *0.450
Ice *2.03
Water 4.179
Wood 1.76
Concrete 0.88
Glass 0.84
Water 4.1

Next is heat transfer rate, how quickly something can "move" heat

Gold very high, asbestos very low

Last is the thermal mass of the item: Bar of gold: High, Aluminum foll: Low Air: Very Low

So, aluminum can heat up easily, transfers heat quickly, but has low mass.

Imagine heat as Dollars.

The aluminum can accept dollars quickly from the oven, and can give the dollars to a customer (you) quickly, but since it is foil, it has a tiny bank account, so while it can had it out quickly, it goes broke (feels cool to the touch) very quickly.

Try the same thing with a iron bar the same temperature, and you have burned fingers.

This is why you can stick you hand into a 500 degree over for a short time, but you will be instantly badly burned by touching a 500 degree block of copper.

Good job Bob. Comparing well known objects is graphic. Aluminum fry pan VS iron fry pan of somewhat similar thickness.

A mysterious thing is comparing some common liquids. Ever notice how tomato soup stays hot much longer than chicken noodle or various broth/soup?

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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 05:23 AM
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Gotta love the cheese toast. Vermont white cheddar on sour dough is my favorite.

Now if only we could arrive at a similar scientific explanation for why red heads get "hotter" than blondes and brunettes. I typically denounce stereotypes but my X was a redhead and prior to that dated 4 for 5 so definitely buy into the theory. I suppose it must somehow be linked to pigmentation - that seems too obvious. My guess is formal scientific studies haven't been done on this yet. Possibly an opportunity for a grant exists.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 09:06 AM
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I think science just told me I need a solid gold radiator using chicken broth as coolant to prevent overheating.
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-06-2017, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwstang View Post
Why not use aluminum for something like a cpu in a computer (Instead of gold or whatever they use)? It seems heat is what messes up the cpu. This is getting really interesting and thanks for all the co-efficient figures. I would think that air would take much longer to cool down as when swmbo turns the dad gum heat way up because she is "freezing"....when it's already 75F in the house, sure seems to take a long time to drop back (after I sneakily ease it back down....have to be covert because she usually has one of the chihuahuas posted to guard it)
I'm taking a wild guess and saying aluminum oxidizes and reduces efficiency..... or, it expands and contracts too much when exposed to temperature variations. Like I said, just some guesses. Hopefully someone with some actual knowledge about this answers you! lol

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwstang View Post
Why not use aluminum for something like a cpu in a computer (Instead of gold or whatever they use)? It seems heat is what messes up the cpu. This is getting really interesting and thanks for all the co-efficient figures. I would think that air would take much longer to cool down as when swmbo turns the dad gum heat way up because she is "freezing"....when it's already 75F in the house, sure seems to take a long time to drop back (after I sneakily ease it back down....have to be covert because she usually has one of the chihuahuas posted to guard it)
I'm guessing conductivity will come into play here...and I think silver is used. (I should add that it's probably copper because of price and near the same conductivity rate).

Allen

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Last edited by Turnall; 01-07-2017 at 12:33 AM.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 10:16 AM
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Without boring the life out of everyone, gold is used in computer chips, but only to connect it to the outside world. I was involved in the design and manufacture of chips.

A large computer chip can have in excess of 10 billion transistors, and there are lots of other "components" also. All this on a piece of silicon about the size of a postage stamp.

It starts as a large circle of pure silicon, about a foot in diameter, and the main transistors are photographically created (moat: base of the transistor, Gate: the "working part" PLDD and NLDD (positive and negative lightly doped drains: The talking parts) and a lot more. All this is silicon, nitrides, boron, arsenic, phosphorus, gallium, etc. ) They are put down in layers, a photo pattern is put on top, and what is not needed is etched away. The sizes are in nanometers, about 75,000 nanometers in a human hair.

After that, contacts made of metal are put on, kind of like battery terminals, again, billions of them per chip. After that, the "wiring" to link it all together. A layer of an insulator is applied, then trenches are cut into the insulator, then copper is plated on, then a polisher polishes off copper that is higher than the trench. These copper layers are about 1/100th the thickness of a human hair, so that shows how "flat" the polisher needs to be. Another layer of insulator is applied, billions of holes are chemically "drilled" in the correct spots to reach the "wiring" underneath, and another layer of copper is applied. A less complicated chip may have 5 metal layers, and a complex one might have 15 or more layers.

Finally, a layer of aluminum "wiring" is joined to the copper "wiring" to allow it to communicate to the outside world. The foot diameter circle is sliced into the little squares or rectangles that become 1 chip. The backside is ground away, leaving it a little thicker than a sheet of paper. Billions of components, wiring, etc. weighs a couple grams.

It is actually placed in it's holder, what you see if you open up a computer, upside down. The heat is generated by the transistors, which are at the bottom of the chip, now in the package as the top of the chip. The silicon was ground away so the "hot" transistors would be a close to the surface as possible, and a metal heat sink is placed on top of them, and the actual packaged device may have aluminum cooling fins on top, and maybe a fan blowing air across.

Meanwhile, the electrical signals, once they leave the chip, travel on gold wires to reduce resistance. Part of the design of the chip is to put the components that talk the most to each other as close as possible, because a difference of a few millimeters, traveling at the speed of light, can make a big difference how fast the chip works.

All these billions of parts, wiring, gold leads, etc. for a couple hundred dollars.

The last 4 factories I helped bring on line all cost over 1/2 billion dollars each. The "cameras" were about the size of a 2 car garage, with lens elements about the size of a 55 gallon drum. They were made by such companies as Nikon and Canon.

You may now return to your normal life.

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