Questions regarding USS Fitzgerald - Page 2 - Vintage Mustang Forums

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post #16 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 10:14 AM
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Many of us like to have our car be fairly maneuverable even if it's just a drive to work vehicle. Here we have to massive objects the cargo ship the equivalent of 1000 heavily loaded semi trailers. The destroyer is a nimble highly maneuverable weight of a mere 250 loaded semi trailers.

Never been in the Navy, been on a 20' fishing boat a few times! My guess is if they saw this coming it would take several miles for the Destroyer to get out of the way of the cargo ship. The Cargo ship was to a much greater extent headed where it was headed.
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post #17 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 12:17 PM
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The Fitzgerald is a Corvette in comparison to a cargo ship......

Something was going on on their bridge, but not the right
procedures. There's a CAS (Collision Avoidance System) and
numerous radars, watchstanders and off the bridge, CIC/CDC
(Combat Information Center) and the signal bridge.
There's no lack of info.
It's how the info is acted upon.

The OOD should have received the "picture" of where the cargo
ship was and where it was going and maneuvered to avoid,
in keeping with the Fitzgerald's standing orders (and the skipper's
night orders, if it's that time of the day).
Personally, I would have gone ship-to-ship over to that contact and
come to "consensus" even if that agreement meant that only I was
maneuvering to avoid. This is commonly the case when dealing with
a cargo ship. They don't generally alter course to avoid.

Collision w. loss of life = heads will roll at the board of inquiry

As the drill sergeant said, "I taught you everything you know. I didn't teach you everything I know."

"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
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post #18 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 02:07 PM Thread Starter
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I have a very good friend who is a member of the "Tin Can Sailors". They called destroyers Tin Cans because they were lightly armored to maintain speed and maneuverability.
http://www.destroyers.org/index.html

A giant container ship will need several miles to stop or turn. As GT289 says, a destroyer is a Corvette (I'd say a Mustang!) in comparison.

I bet there were all kinds of warning lights, horns and sirens going off in the control room of the Fitzgerald. The radar certainly had the capability to plot the 2 ships course lines, vectors or whatever they may be called and predict the collision many miles before it would occur.
Numerous times I have heard an Air Traffic Controller key his mike and in the background anyone on the frequency can hear the warning alerts his radar is giving him as 2 aircraft on his screen are on a collision or near miss course.
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post #19 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 09:36 PM
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Just how long does it require a destroyer to "All Stop", "Reverse Course" or "Evasive Maneuvers"? I tried a search and it just came up with news about the recent collision. So sad about the missing men found in the flooded compartment. Their shipmates will be sharing that grief. Surely the bridge watch has those instructions at their finger tips on watch.

Interesting discussion about the incident on this page. Somebody did not follow the rules.

Breaking: US Navy destroyer takes on water after collision off Japanese coast, page 4
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post #20 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwstang View Post
Just how long does it require a destroyer to "All Stop", "Reverse Course" or "Evasive Maneuvers"? I tried a search and it just came up with news about the recent collision. So sad about the missing men found in the flooded compartment. Their shipmates will be sharing that grief. Surely the bridge watch has those instructions at their finger tips on watch.

Interesting discussion about the incident on this page. Somebody did not follow the rules.

Breaking: US Navy destroyer takes on water after collision off Japanese coast, page 4
Your question is difficult to answer without taking into account velocity.
At 15 knots the answer is different than at 30. (and we're getting into
"classified" territory here)
There definitely is dynamic "handling" info for a destroyer. It goes far
beyond XXX turns on the screws for 20 knots. You won't find it in Jane's
Fighting Ships.
Suffice to say, a decently trained conning officer should be able to do
some pretty spectacular maneuvering in that destroyer.
(For a man-overboard test during an admiral's readiness evaluation, I once
did a figure 8 with an aircraft carrier, lowered an elevator and our small
boat crew scooped Oscar out of the water with a boat hook)
A very junior conning officer in a destroyer could easily perform that
same trick..... wouldn't be quite as impressive though.

As the drill sergeant said, "I taught you everything you know. I didn't teach you everything I know."

"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
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post #21 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwstang View Post
Just how long does it require a destroyer to "All Stop", "Reverse Course" or "Evasive Maneuvers"? I tried a search and it just came up with news about the recent collision. So sad about the missing men found in the flooded compartment. Their shipmates will be sharing that grief. Surely the bridge watch has those instructions at their finger tips on watch.

Interesting discussion about the incident on this page. Somebody did not follow the rules.

Breaking: US Navy destroyer takes on water after collision off Japanese coast, page 4
The destroyer should not have had to take evasive maneuvers, the cargo ship was/should have been a blip on their radars for sometime. Cargo ships are not that fast of moving ships, the destroyer would have plenty of time to maneuver out of the way There is more to this story, it's a matter of time after their investigations before we know what and why this happened.
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post #22 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 12:14 PM
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GT289 is right and heads are going to roll. After working with other Services (the Army in particular) the Navy standard for responsibility of a Commanding Officer is unparalleled. That is one of various reasons the Navy considers O4- below "Junior" officers.
With very few exceptions, any time a USN ship is involved in a collision or runs aground the CO, the Officer of the Deck (Guy in charge of steering the ship) and the Navigation officer will be immediately relieved (fired). Sometimes a BOI will not find fault, but it tends to be a career ender any way you cut it.

Just to put the kebosh on conspiracy theories, (and staying with the sportscar analogy) a dump truck can run a red light or change lanes without looking. Having a Corvette may get you out of some situations, but if you only have a split second to make a decision, it doesn't matter. You are going to get run over. Now compound that with the fact that you are in one of the busier shipping lanes in the world (i.e. any major highway in a major city) and you can start to gather the picture.
I already know the counter argument is that it isn't the Corvette drivers "fault" and your insurance agent may agree. But the US Navy has a significantly higher standard. That BOI will crawl under the chassis and check the last time the brake fluid was flushed, the tread depth on the spare tire, and what the radio presets were for the last 5 years. The CO is ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that happens on that ship.

My prayers go out to the friends, families and shipmates of the crew and especially those that made the ultimate sacrifice for our country.

22+ years (and still going) in the worlds greatest Navy (4 years 8 months and 6 days (but who was counting) on a destroyer
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post #23 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wsmatau View Post
With very few exceptions, any time a USN ship is involved in a collision or runs aground the CO, the Officer of the Deck (Guy in charge of steering the ship) and the Navigation officer will be immediately relieved (fired). Sometimes a BOI will not find fault, but it tends to be a career ender any way you cut it.
Talked with a customer today (who is retired Navy) and he said this almost verbatim.

Thanks for your service!

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post #24 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 04:04 PM
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7 sailors lose their lives in service to their country and 24 hours later no statement of condolence from either the White House or the President, the young men's Commander in Chief. Very Sad. But what do you expect from a draft dodger and someone who says they don't like POWs because they got caught.

I wish to thank the sailors for their service and also to their families I offer my sympathies and appreciation for their loss. RIP.
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post #25 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 06:40 PM
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7 sailors lose their lives in service to their country and 24 hours later no statement of condolence from either the White House or the President, the young men's Commander in Chief.
Trump tweets 'thoughts and prayers' to sailors after Navy destroyer collision

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post #26 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 07:17 PM
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A tweet is not cutting it! He needs to go and see these families soon. If he can't then he can have them brought to him.
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post #27 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 07:29 PM
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I'm sorry, I don't have twitter. Is a tweet now an official statement? Is a tweet an acceptable way to pay respect to our Country's loss by the Commander and Chief? I may be getting too old to understand how this is acceptable. My goodness, I dedicated more time and effort in typing my condolence on this Forum than the President did in his tweet. Gosh, he dedicated more space to the "media's witch hunt" that same day than these fallen men. Sad.
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post #28 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 07:29 PM
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"(For a man-overboard test during an admiral's readiness evaluation, I once
did a figure 8 with an aircraft carrier, lowered an elevator and our small
boat crew scooped Oscar out of the water with a boat hook)"

Wow! That has to be the equivalent of taking an SR 71 and buzzing fat boy in North Korea at about 50'
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post #29 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 07:52 PM
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Someone mentioned "bleeps on the radar". I assume there were many bleeps showing up in a congested shipping lane. Sort of like an air traffic controller monitoring a busy airport. Be interesting to see what his interpretation of this will be, or if he was drowsy or just miscalculated. Sad situation and so many careers will be ruined. I mean, people that otherwise did an out standing job day in and night out. One mistake over rides years of faithful service. I was a medic and still remember working many long hours when a boat would come into port that did not have a Dr. on board. Mistakes can be made in an instance. I checked and double checked everything that I did. Always did the same for the Doc too.
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post #30 of 74 (permalink) Old 06-19-2017, 08:36 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brian66 View Post
7 sailors lose their lives in service to their country and 24 hours later no statement of condolence from either the White House or the President, the young men's Commander in Chief. Very Sad. But what do you expect from a draft dodger and someone who says they don't like POWs because they got caught.

I wish to thank the sailors for their service and also to their families I offer my sympathies and appreciation for their loss. RIP.
Maybe he did it in private rather than spread it all over the headlines so people can say "Isn't he thoughtful and caring!" It's not about him- it's about the sailors who died. And this president knows that.
It reminds me of the presidents who take a helicopter flight over a flood or hurricane ravaged locale. Exactly what good does that do anybody? He could see just as much from photos on the TV. Why waste money on a flight to the area in a 747 and then take an expensive helicopter ride? Why not just give the money that the trip will cost to the relief efforts? Oh, I forgot. The president is seen as "thoughtful and caring" if he flies over in a helicopter.
What a crock of !
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