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Old 02-25-2013, 01:41 PM   #16 (permalink)
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To be honest, I can see moving to EFI since no one has carbs anymore. But to implement it in a manner that no one would design into a production car leaves me scratching my head wondering what the perceived benefit would be...
That's easy. (flamesuit on)

In real racing there are, periodically, technical breakthroughs which allow one engine or chassis manufacturer to dominate for a brief period, at least until the other competitors can emulate it. That's been the story since the earliest days of motorsport, and it's the one thing that NASCAR can't allow at any cost.

NASCAR's goal is to maintain absolute parity amongst the 'manufacturers', lest one of them get discouraged and pull their sponsorship $$$. That's what lead to the death of homologation rules, to common template silliness, to goofy RWD 2-door Fusions, etc., etc., ad nauseum. Any meaningful change to the technical spec leaves the real possibility that a talented engineer will find a way to exploit the change to a slightly greater degree than his counterparts, and that won't fly. It's a highly managed spectacle masquerading as free and open competition, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Sorry for the rant. I was a big NASCAR fan years ago, but I can't swallow the dreck that passes for stock car racing in this country now.
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:28 PM   #17 (permalink)
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If they quit calling it "stock car" racing I might start paying more attention to it.
But that caught my eye up there. 700Hp with a 350 cubic inch engine while running a 390 cfm carburetor. Think about all those guys with 289's and 302's who think they need a Holley 650 to 750 cfm carb to make 300 horsepower. Sure it's kind of apples and oranges but still anusing.
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:42 PM   #18 (permalink)
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If they quit calling it "stock car" racing I might start paying more attention to it.
I haven't heard anyone refer to NASCAR as stock car racing since the 70s. They haven't run stock anything for decades. NASCAR vehicles are pure racing cars with pure racing engines. There's nothing stock about them. Today's race cars are differentiated as to whether or not they are "open wheel". But I heard even Indy cars may no longer be open wheel due to safety concerns. So, who knows what's going to happen next.

Just this year NASCAR allowed the body shell to resemble the cars they supposedly emulate. But the Ford Fusion shell only slightly resembles the actual Fusion body.

As for the 390CFM carb, that's to slow them down. If they ran 650CFM carbs, they'd likely be over 1,000 HP. So, yeah. Apples and oranges.

Last edited by Klutch; 02-25-2013 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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You can buy Ford's race block, (if you have the $$) right out of the Ford Motorsport catalog. It looks nothing like a production block. The NASCAR approved rear suspension for all makes is similar to an old Chevy truck. I don't know what they use for a front suspension.
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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You can buy Ford's race block, (if you have the $$) right out of the Ford Motorsport catalog. It looks nothing like a production block. The NASCAR approved rear suspension for all makes is similar to an old Chevy truck. I don't know what they use for a front suspension.
It's a multi-link racing suspension at the rear. They all run the same, tubular chassis with coil-over suspension up front. The rules are very strict about this for safety. A modern NASCAR chassis is pretty much a space ship with wheels. The driver sits inside a cacoon, wearing a space suit, and can barely move with all the safety gear around him (and now, or her).

Realistically, modern NASCAR is a competition between the speed and accuracy of the teams and the capabilities of the drivers; not the cars. It's nothing like the old days when it was about what company made the fastest car. All the teams are running basically the same car with the same engine. The variations between the manufacturers are almost meaningless. As mentioned, NASCAR doesn't want any manufacturer to dominate in any way.
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:12 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I always thought they were running a 351's based off the clevland block.
many years ago they went to a W style block with 2.75" main bearing bores. the windsor has an exelent oiling system and is the only ford small block of that type that sends oil to the main bearings first. they still ran canted valved heads. a couple of years ago ford came out with there new race engine whick is a clean sheet design. i dont know how many teams are running it. nothing from any previous engines will interchange.
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:24 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I watched and was thrilled when three Toyota leaders blew up in the late laps. Toyota does have their own engine. AFAIK the Japanese gov backs Toy development.
The USA backs NASCAR. There was a big fat tax break in the Fiscal cliff deal just for NASCAR. A tax break is the same as an outright subsidy.
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:43 PM   #23 (permalink)
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You can buy Ford's race block, (if you have the $$) right out of the Ford Motorsport catalog.
If you buy that block do you have to run 15 quarts of oil in it like the NASCAR guys, or can you get a smaller oil pan than they use?

// Curiosity only, I have no desire to go that route
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:50 PM   #24 (permalink)
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The USA backs NASCAR. There was a big fat tax break in the Fiscal cliff deal just for NASCAR. A tax break is the same as an outright subsidy.
AFAIK this was (stated to be) a one time recession program that applied to areas from toothpicks to manhole covers.
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:52 PM   #25 (permalink)
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If you buy that block do you have to run 15 quarts of oil in it like the NASCAR guys, or can you get a smaller oil pan than they use?

// Curiosity only, I have no desire to go that route
it depends on the block. there the wet sump and the dry sump versions. dry sump doesnt have iol in the pan , its in a seperate tank. theres also blocks with a filter pad and blocks that require a remote filter.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:19 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Klutch View Post
It's a multi-link racing suspension at the rear. They all run the same, tubular chassis with coil-over suspension up front. The rules are very strict about this for safety. A modern NASCAR chassis is pretty much a space ship with wheels. The driver sits inside a cacoon, wearing a space suit, and can barely move with all the safety gear around him (and now, or her)..
The NASCAR rear suspension is also known as a truck arm suspension. Here's a link from PHR, if you scroll down in the link you will see a photo of the truck arm suspension.

Behind the Scenes of Nascar Racing - William M. Burt - Google Books
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:40 PM   #27 (permalink)
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True, but it's not the same fuel injection system that we are familiar with on regular cars.

The fuel injection systems that come on all modern cars have a separate fuel injector for each cylinder. This allows each cylinder to get exactly the right amount of fuel/air each time.

Yet for reasons I can't explain, when NASCAR went to fuel injection last year they came up with their own system. These NASCAR engines still use a shared intake manifold for each side of the engine. So when we think EFI, we think of getting the right mix to each cylinder, but to NASCAR, EFI means that they get the right mix to each side of the engine. Then it's up to the engineers in the pit crews to determine how much the change the ratio of fuel between the inside-side of the engine and the outside-side of the engine.

To be honest, I can see moving to EFI since no one has carbs anymore. But to implement it in a manner that no one would design into a production car leaves me scratching my head wondering what the perceived benefit would be...

Are you talking batch fire vs sequential? I know that they are running individual injectors per cylinder like the OEM's do, but I'm not familiar with the injection strategy.


On the Ford engines (FR9) they are dry sump only blocks and were designed specifically for NASCAR usage. Here is some pictures and info on them... NASCAR Race Engines - New Sprint Cup Powerplants From Ford And Dodge - Hot Rod Magazine
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:55 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I too used to watch nascar. Heck I used to get free admiss, infield passes, even pit passes. But then things began to change, and now nothing is even remotely like it used to be (I know times change- but modern nascar is just silly) Then we lost tracks that started it all, just so we can get more viewers, sponsers, etc. Shame to see what North Wilkesboro looks like now. (I am about 30 miles away) Nothing on these cars is OEM anymore, not even a single screw. So now I go to the speedway only for the autofair- or sometimes to a small town paved track where people bring cars they built, after their day job ended. They figure out what works best by trying it, they try to outsmart the tech inspectors, and they have a good time doing it. Ahh the good old days. So long nascar- (and that was before I found out my tax dollars might be supporting it)WTF??
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:50 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeds View Post
True, but it's not the same fuel injection system that we are familiar with on regular cars.

The fuel injection systems that come on all modern cars have a separate fuel injector for each cylinder. This allows each cylinder to get exactly the right amount of fuel/air each time.

Yet for reasons I can't explain, when NASCAR went to fuel injection last year they came up with their own system. These NASCAR engines still use a shared intake manifold for each side of the engine. So when we think EFI, we think of getting the right mix to each cylinder, but to NASCAR, EFI means that they get the right mix to each side of the engine. Then it's up to the engineers in the pit crews to determine how much the change the ratio of fuel between the inside-side of the engine and the outside-side of the engine.

To be honest, I can see moving to EFI since no one has carbs anymore. But to implement it in a manner that no one would design into a production car leaves me scratching my head wondering what the perceived benefit would be...
not sure what you mean, NASCAR certainly does use a single injector per cylinder, i'm not sure if its multipoint or direct injection but i'm guessing multiport.
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:37 PM   #30 (permalink)
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and Dodge is gone again
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