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Old 03-20-2009, 05:01 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Hydro boost master cylinders?

I was wondering if anyone has any experiance with the hydro boost master cylinders? I have a manual 65 mustang coupe and most power brake boosters seem to not wanna work from what I have found. Always stated for automatic trans cars with the brake kits. So any info/experiance will be helpful.
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Old 03-20-2009, 02:04 PM   #2 (permalink)
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im using a ´04 Ford f350 hydroboost with a 94-99 Mustang GT mastercilinder, it bolted right up..
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Old 03-20-2009, 03:37 PM   #3 (permalink)
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That is definatly good to know. Only problem is the 65 has a little tighter mounting area for the master than a 72. It's good to know that it works well thought.
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Old 05-12-2009, 03:18 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hydroboosted

How about some pics of your hydroboost? Thanks
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:01 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hydroboosted

I got a hydroboost and MC from a 96 mustang gt off ebay for $53 to put in my 68. I don't have the lines run yet but I have it mounted in the stock location. I managed to fit it in with the 4.6 DOHC so I don't think you'll have too much trouble mounting one in your 65. I don't have a good shot of it installed but here is what I got.

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Old 05-13-2009, 12:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hydroboosted

Thanks for the pictures! IIRC, doesn't a late model 2000, 6cyl MC install more level? I remember looking for one that didn't have that drastic angle to it.
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:53 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hydroboosted

I don't know much about the newer 6cyl mustangs but I thought they still used a vacuum booster and only the gt and cobra got hydroboost. If so I'm not sure the MC would bolt up/
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Old 05-13-2009, 09:32 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Stangtjk,
The master cylinders are indeed different. The mounting ears are rotated vert. on the H-boost units, rather than horizontal. Check out the above pic. However, you "may" depending on condition of reservoir, be able to pop the reservoir off and swap them.

Please explain a little more about your mounting of the H-boost. When you say you mounted it in the stock location, do you mean it mounted in the original mounting holes (i.e. into the pedal box mounts). Or do you mean it is mounted in the same location, but you drilled holes in the fire wall for the mounting studs?

Last question...with it mounted, how is the brake pedal height? I found the pedal was too high on my 69 when using the mounting plate that came on the H-boost.

I am also doing this conversion, and considering making a kit, but if there are units out there that will bolt right in, then I'm wasting my time, and we just need to make the donor parts known to all.... Thanks in advance for the feedback.
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hydroboosted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZFORCE
Thanks for the pictures! IIRC, doesn't a late model 2000, 6cyl MC install more level? I remember looking for one that didn't have that drastic angle to it.
All SN95 V6 Mustangs utilized vacuum-assisted brakes during their entire production run from 1994-2004. The SN95 Mustang GTs/Cobras used vacuum-assist on the '94/'95 year models only.

In 1996, all Mustang GTs [as well as Cobras] switched to hydroboosted brake systems.

All of the reservoirs on the hydroboost system's master cylinders have the downward slope to them. Of all the V6 MCs I've encountered had the more-or-less "level" reservoir on them.

Comparison of V6 MC reservoir on left vs. GT/Cobra reservoir on right:



This is a '96 Mustang GT hydroboost setup in my '68. Obviously, my '68 has a million miles to go before it's all back together and running again, but I just stuck the unit in place on the firewall to get a basic idea what it would look like.



MCs from vacuum boosters will not work on hydroboost units due to the difference in their mounting flanges. Vacuum booster mounting flanges are horizontal. Hydroboost MC mounting flanges have a vertical mounting pattern. --Actually, there are two versions in the clocking of the hydroboost MC's mounting flanges. There's the '96-'98 version, then there's the '99-'04 version which has a greater clocking to the position of the mounting studs as seen in the photo below:



However, the reservoirs will physically swap between the V6 MCs and the hydroboost MCs, so this is possible.

The hydroboost units from '96-'98 have smaller accumulators [the cylindrical object off-center and to the upper right on the unit] on them than the hydroboost units from '99-04 model GTs/Cobras

Larger accumulator version that is stock in my '03 Mach 1:




If you install a '99-'04 hydroboost MC on a pre-99 unit, it will work but due to the different stud clocking it will lean over like this:




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Old 05-13-2009, 11:55 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Rob,
I mounted mine in the same location by drilling holes in the firewall. I cant say about the pedal height right off hand. My car is 2 hours away and I don't remember from when I installed it. I know it definitely wasn't too low lol. With all the big things to do with my project I haven't worried much about the little details. I've seen a few ppl retrofit these in different things and too get the pedal right they either shortened the shaft from the hydroboost or moved the pin on the pedal. I may head home this weekend, if I do I'll get back to you but I'd imagine its about the same as your 69.
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Old 05-14-2009, 01:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hydro boost master cylinders?

I was gonna stay out of this one because it's such a can of worms, but I can't help myself...

I put HB on my '68. I'd say quite successfully so. But, it was FAR from straightforward!

Someone told me that HB was only used by the factory when they were painted into a corner. In other words, it's not in there because it's better. It's in there because of space and/or packaging constraints. If you can use vacuum boost, you probably should. But, if you disregard that advice (not necessarily mine)...

I did it because I wanted brakes just like my Bullitt on my '68. There's also the "cool" factor.

I snagged a complete unit off an '03 Cobra. It mounts at quite an angle to the firewall and has the corresponding tilted reservoir. You need to recognize that the pushrod is now on a slope and not level like the factory setup was. If you manage to get it connected to your pedal, you introduce side loads on the piston because the pedal is pushing forward against a piston that is sloping uphill.

You also need to consider pedal ratio. The difference between manual and power pedals is huge. Power pedals pivot up high on the support whereas manual pedals pivot down low in the bushed hole. Since HB applies very different assist than vacuum does, you may need a different pedal ratio.

As I recall, the power ratio is around 6:1. Manual is about 2.5:1 In my 2001 Bullitt with HB, it's 3.5:1 or something like that. So, to feel right, you need to duplicate the ratio of the car from which the HB unit came. But, if you don't have the same brakes, rotor diameter, etc. that all goes out the window.

I am also running Bullitt brakes on my '68, so I duplicated everything I could on the '68.

Getting the HB on the firewall is the least of your problems. I had to remove the factory studs and drill new holes in both the firewall and HB to mount it. But not until after working out where the pedal pin would be and how the pushrod came through, etc.

I cut a section out of my power brake pedal to reduce the pedal ratio from 6.0 (or whatever) to 3.5 (or whatever). Because of the sloping pushrod, I had to move the pivot point rearward in the car so that the arc the pin traveled in was aligned withe the pushrod. To keep the pedal height and position the same as a stock '68, I had to move the hole in the pedal support rearward and downward. This in conjunction with the modified pedal put the pedal in the exact same place in space as stock, but had the Bullitt pedal ratio, and proper movement of the pushrod pin.









This was all done while the car was on a rotisserie and the cowl was out. I can't imagine attempting this (and I wouldn't) in a otherwise working car.

I test drove this system for the first time a coupla weeks ago. Not in the street, mind you, but around in my very large driveway. So far, I have to say, "Mission accomplished."
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:49 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hydro boost master cylinders?

Thanks for the input Bashed, looks like you did a good job with the install. There are a few comments I'd like to add.

Quote:
Someone told me that HB was only used by the factory when they were painted into a corner. In other words, it's not in there because it's better. It's in there because of space and/or packaging constraints. If you can use vacuum boost, you probably should. But, if you disregard that advice (not necessarily mine)...
It may be true that the factory avoids using hydroboost but I would imagine that it has more to do with cost than anything else. Hydroboost is a bit more complicated and more expensive to install. Other than that I don't think a vacuum booster would have any advantage over HB. It does have a few disadvantages such as if your engine doesn't produce enough vacuum for it to work. The HB is also able to build more pressure.

As for they way you modified the pedal to get the "right" feel, I think this would depend entirely on personal preference. I understand that you liked the way your bullitt brakes felt so you wanted the same feel for your 68 which is why you decided on the same pedal ratio. Just about every vehicle I've driven has had a different pedal feel so its not that critical. I hate touchy brakes however so I would opt for a low pedal ratio.

Also you cut a section out between the pedal pivot and the mounting arm for the push rod yet said you were going from a pedal ratio of 6 to 3.5, however by doing this to increased the pedal ratio rather than decreasing it. The pedal ratio is determined by dividing the length of the pedal by the center to center distance of the pivot point and lower arm. As an example if your pedal was originally 15" total length and the center to center distance was 5" the pedal ratio would be 3:1. If you cut 3" out between the pivot and arm the new lengths would be 12" and 2" which would give a pedal ratio of 6:1.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Hydro boost master cylinders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stangtjk
Also you cut a section out between the pedal pivot and the mounting arm for the push rod yet said you were going from a pedal ratio of 6 to 3.5, however by doing this to increased the pedal ratio rather than decreasing it. The pedal ratio is determined by dividing the length of the pedal by the center to center distance of the pivot point and lower arm. As an example if your pedal was originally 15" total length and the center to center distance was 5" the pedal ratio would be 3:1. If you cut 3" out between the pivot and arm the new lengths would be 12" and 2" which would give a pedal ratio of 6:1.
You're right. It's been nearly a year since I did all of this. I had it backward. I found some notes and the power pedal ratio is 3.0, the manual pedal ratio is 6.0 and the Bullitt is 4.8. I increased the pedal ratio from 3.0 to 4.8 to duplicate the Bullitt.

Equally important is the arc of the pin. If one keeps the sloping HB unit, I really think it's important to move the pivot and alter the pedal to get the pin moving in the right direction.

Hydratech Braking sells bolt-in HB setups (around $700 as I recall). They replace the factory stamped firewall mount with a machined aluminum version that takes the slope out. They also include a "flat" reservoir and some kind of pushrod adapter or something to catch the pedal pin. I don't know if they require the use of a power pedal or manual one. But, if one were to use the manual pedal... talk about touchy brakes!
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