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Old 08-17-2010, 11:30 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default borgeson box and 90+ 5.0 ford pump serpentine setup or saginaw

what i want: to use a 5.0 efi motor complete with serpentine and ford PS pump--

i have a 91 5.0 and want to put it in our 68 vert.. i also want to do the borgeson conversion and rid the car of the original ps setup ram .

ford changed pumps in 89-- 90+ pumps are metric-- not sure if flow is any better tho at low rpm.

i looked for hours today and cannot find a frickin metric 16mm flat oring fitting to make AN-6 hoses for this pump!
would seem to be a easy fitting to make like ford does where it swivels and has a -6 male AN end.. ?? but no one does

all i can find is original hoses.. called around and went to a place that makes lines and they cannot make the high pressure hose. i can take a used hose and cut it up and use a -6 an nut and flare it -- or i can tig weld a -6 weld bung onto the end of the original hose fitting --

i cant believe with all the fox cars no one makes a kit to upgrade the ps lines to braided for a mustang!

am i wasting my time with the ford pump-- borgeson says the assist is low at idle (below 800)

has anyone actually used the later 5.0 pump with this box?

i dont mind making the adapters but dont want to go thru all this for the hoses to find out its a waste of time..

and lastly -- anyone tried to see if the saginaw conversions work with a serpentine pulley that will all line up with the stock 91 5.0 serpentine setup..
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64.5 vert rust free survivor :
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:49 PM   #2 (permalink)
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found this for mounting a saginaw to a mustang 5.0

Delphi/Saginaw 5.0 Pump Bracket - WILD HORSES Early Ford Bronco Parts

i think i may need this one if i use the stock 5.0 ac compressor>>>

also

Saginaw Steering Swap - WT4Wheeling Tech

is a ford bracket from a E van that uses a saginaw right from ford..
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64.5 vert rust free survivor :
Stacked EFI- Ford strokers 347
Hydroboost/ISIS/Coilovers
4 link rear w/17 x 9's
13" custom brakes


68 survivor vert- rust free (still all stock)
65 FB and 68 FB waiting in the barn.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3363178
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:54 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I have Gotta Show hoses on my car. They work great! Give them a call and they can hook you up with everything you need.

Gotta Show Products Home Page Featuring Hot Rod Plumbing
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Borgeson has the adaptors, their hoses have a -6 45deg hose end at the box and an M16 TO -6 adaapter.

i got creative on my plumbing, bent a hard line to go over the box and down in front of it, a pump fitting off a 92 Taurus 3.8 that leads down and in, and a section of hose that loops in thru the crossmember. Might not work with longtubes but for my setup it's far cleaner than trying to go around the tower and loop back to the pump.

Return hard line goes out thru the inner fender, forward about how the OE fuel line ran, to a cooler above the bumper bracket, then back thru the fuel line hole with a piece of hose to the pump.
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
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i have the borgeson catalog but didnt see the adapter for later fox pump

it is M16 but o-ring-- swivel.. i didnt see that listed-- i got a M16-AN6 russell fitting and it doesnt seem to be the right thing..

i cut a old PS hose today and used a -6 AN tube nut and sleeve and flared the steel line 37 degree so i can use -6 braided from there..

now to figure out the hydroboost fitting on the feed-- M18 i think-- may have to order a new hose just to cut it up..

went to call gottashow today and found out they close at 3-- will try tomorrow again
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64.5 vert rust free survivor :
Stacked EFI- Ford strokers 347
Hydroboost/ISIS/Coilovers
4 link rear w/17 x 9's
13" custom brakes


68 survivor vert- rust free (still all stock)
65 FB and 68 FB waiting in the barn.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3363178
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:14 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fonebooth View Post
i have the borgeson catalog but didnt see the adapter for later fox pump
Don't rely on what's in the catalog, call them.

They don't list the fittings separately, but they include them in their hose kit, they *might* sell them. I ended up buying a hose kit, didn't like the hose routing so used just the fittings and made my own hard lines and hoses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fonebooth View Post
it is M16 but o-ring-- swivel..
Borgeson says the fitting needed for the box is 16mm inverted flare but what they supply has a sealing washer and seats against the box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fonebooth View Post
i cut a old PS hose today and used a -6 AN tube nut and sleeve and flared the steel line 37 degree so i can use -6 braided from there..
I assume you're using the right teflon stuff, the rubber -6 is not rated for that kind of pressure.

My pressure line is a rubber Parker-Hannifin hydraulic hose. Very durable stuff. I tend to try to avoid shiny stuff under the hood. I like to make things look OE if possible.

Borgeson told me the Fox pump should be fine for their box. That pump design was used in a bunch of different applications with, presumably, different flow and pressure settings, so it ought to be possible to find one that'd be a bolt-in that'd work in most any application. I've got one off a mid '90s F250 on the shelf, not sure what the ratings are on it, but it's the same configuration (except for the second return line fitting for the Hydroboost on the filler neck, which would be useful for a overflow catch-can in a track-car application.)

Of course, the big-block brackets that F250 pump came off of are being modified to adapt a late iron Delphi/Saginaw pump out of a Catera (Opel Omega MV6) for the ZF Servotronic box (also out of a Catera) that's going in the '64 wagon...

Last edited by JEM; 08-19-2010 at 03:10 AM.
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Old 08-19-2010, 01:10 PM   #7 (permalink)
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so how does the box work at idle?

and that truck pump is what i need as i am running hydroboost and 2 returns would be better than a T ..

you using serpentine setup?
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64.5 vert rust free survivor :
Stacked EFI- Ford strokers 347
Hydroboost/ISIS/Coilovers
4 link rear w/17 x 9's
13" custom brakes


68 survivor vert- rust free (still all stock)
65 FB and 68 FB waiting in the barn.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3363178
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Old 08-20-2010, 12:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fonebooth View Post
so how does the box work at idle?
I'll tell you that in about six weeks, it's not running yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by fonebooth View Post
and that truck pump is what i need as i am running hydroboost and 2 returns would be better than a T ..
One return is in the customary place on the reservoir, the other is up on the filler neck. Came from an early '90s F250 with a 460 from which I pulled the front dress at the pick-n-pull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fonebooth View Post
you using serpentine setup?
The engine's a stockish '90 shortblock, Edelbrock heads and intake, the full '90 serpentine accessory drive minus the air pump and, for now at least, with someone's underdrive pulleys (Mr Gasket?) '96 Explorer fuel rail, RJM EFI harness, etc.

Doing the rest of the wiring now, need to get it down to the exhaust shop.
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Old 08-21-2010, 12:50 PM   #9 (permalink)
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well definitely want to know how it works with fox pump.. (truck might be different psi/flow tho)

i have started looking for a 94-95 5.0 as opposed to the earlier cars-- i want the whole serpentine setup off that car as its all closer in and the ac is mounted LOW drivers side as opposed to the fox where the ac is high up

perfect for the wifes car--

spoke to a guy locally who uses the mod motor PS pumps as theyre remote-- im waiting on a pic to see how he installs it in the 5.0 inline for the serpentine setup..

might have to go ebay..

locally almost no 94-5 mustangs left for parts that are 5.0s.. all v6.. one place i found wants $600 just for serpentine setup with ac compressor. no way im paying that

. and i can get a whole engine off ebay for $700-800 and $150 to ship it.. so now i'm looking for a whole car to part out.. if i can find one with air ..
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Mike
64.5 vert rust free survivor :
Stacked EFI- Ford strokers 347
Hydroboost/ISIS/Coilovers
4 link rear w/17 x 9's
13" custom brakes


68 survivor vert- rust free (still all stock)
65 FB and 68 FB waiting in the barn.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3363178
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Old 08-21-2010, 02:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fonebooth View Post
i have started looking for a 94-95 5.0 as opposed to the earlier cars-- i want the whole serpentine setup off that car as its all closer in and the ac is mounted LOW drivers side as opposed to the fox where the ac is high up

perfect for the wifes car--

locally almost no 94-5 mustangs left for parts that are 5.0s.. all v6.. one place i found wants $600 just for serpentine setup with ac compressor. no way im paying that
take a look at a 90 to 93 5.0 thunderbird, they have the same serpentine setup as a 94-95 mustang.

i dont know if the 68 have more room between the shock towers, than a 65/66 mustang. i have the same set up in my mustang and the thunderbird a/c pump will hit the shock tower. i actuely cut a piece out off the shock tower to clear the a/c pump.

for the power steering pump, i re used a piece off the steel line off the ps pump and welded a fitting on it that connects to the hose.
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Old 08-21-2010, 04:55 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capri v8 driver View Post
take a look at a 90 to 93 5.0 thunderbird, they have the same serpentine setup as a 94-95 mustang.

i dont know if the 68 have more room between the shock towers, than a 65/66 mustang. i have the same set up in my mustang and the thunderbird a/c pump will hit the shock tower. i actuely cut a piece out off the shock tower to clear the a/c pump.
On the '65 with the '90 Fox bracketry the power steering pump projects in front of the left shock tower, so an AC compressor in a similar location absolutely won't clear. I've got a '65 Cortina GT shell in the side yard and, while the 'tina engine compartment is shorter, it's usefully wider all the way through (once you get the battery tray out of there, at least.)

One of the problems with routing the Borgeson hose to the pump was that the pressure outlet is on the extreme outside of the pump body, so if you're running a hose forward around the shock tower from the steering box it's going to have to go forward of the pump and loop back to it to get enough flex in the hose. I'm quite pleased with how my around-the-oil-pan hose routing worked out, but if I were going to run something up higher I'd do a hard line all the way around the tower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capri v8 driver View Post
for the power steering pump, i re used a piece off the steel line off the ps pump and welded a fitting on it that connects to the hose.
There's a bunch of approaches that work, right now I'm using the Parkrimp hydraulic compression fittings (Parker-Hannifin P/N 11143-6-6 for 3/8 hose to 3/8 tube.)

I wanted to keep the hose section field-replaceable from a common supplier independent of the steel ends, so that meant either the compression fittings or putting tube nuts on the tube and a 37deg JIC male hose end on the hose.

Either way, any Parker-Hannifin hydraulic shop should be able to make up the hose.

Last edited by JEM; 08-21-2010 at 06:39 PM.
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