When Everybody Says your crazy for not fixing your ailing 331 instead of rebuilding the original 289 at what point do you start to believe them? The machinist starting to work on the 289 thinks my money would be better spent looking into the 331's problems than rebuilding the 289. The tech support guy at summit, a Ford guy:surprise:, was quick to inform me that a new Scat crank was only $275 if my current one was bad. This was during a conversation trying to figure out what it would take to make my TW170 heads work with a flat tappet cam properly. Basically, I bought a 331 short block with decent stuff for $2300 and it's going to take another $2300 easy to get the 289 done and working with the special needs associated with the blasted TW170 heads.
Venting done, my brain hurts! How much good money after bad is too much?
What????..you gonna "punish" the 331 by withholding repair parts and shower your lowly 289 with extravagant shop work?!!
Come onnnnn..repair the 331 and mooooove on.
(OR send it to me and I will fix it and use it...gladly) I know a good deal when I see one!!
6sally6
Did you ever determine the cause of the thrust bearing failure in the 331? As I recall the last thing I read was something about a Torque Converter/ Transmission problem. What's going to happen to the 289 if you bolt it in front of that same TC/T?
Well, considering it wasn't the engines fault, it really doesn't make a lot of sense. And it your heads don't care if the cam is roller or flat tappet.
Yea, understand where your coming from. The original transmission, torque converter, and flex plate served the original 289 quite well for 52 years. I put a new motor in front of that proven combination and had immediate thrust bearing failure. So I had the trans rebuilt, added a new torque converter and flex plate and had the same failure. This is an all original unmolested car. I appreciate the positive comments sportsroof69 but maybe even you might be able to understand my frustration?
Officially the valve springs and retainers that came with the heads care if it's a roller or flat tappet. Trying to solve not create new problems.
The big questions is.... "are you absolutely, positively, sure that a) the thrust surface on the crank is smooth, b) the thrust bearing was installed correctly...that is the cap properly seated in its register, the bolts installed finger tight, the bearing seated by running the crank forward and back, and the cap torqued down while prying the crank forward.... and c) that there was no dirt left in the oiling system upon start-up and d) proper end play was measured.
If the answer to all 4 questions eliminates the crank from being an issue then the problem will likely be repeated with any engine you install as it has to be the drivetrain.
Just to throw my .02 in (probably not even worth .02), I've thought you should continue with the 331 as well. Maybe, and some of the guys will know, you could crank the 331 before it's bolted to the transmission and see what happens. Again, I'm not sure on that, but I'm sure the ones that do know will chime in...
You go to he!!, you go to He!! right now! On second thought, can you adapt the LS to a C4? Or maybe I could put a TH200 behind it. Now that was a transmission!
I wouldn't give up on the new engine yet, but it would take spending more money on it. I would have a good machine shop go through it and see what they can find.
And do what sportsroof69 mentions. Look outside the block for anything external. Using borescopes or whatever you need to in order to examine everything.
Russ
Take all your short block parts to a real performance engine shop and work with them on a complete blueprinting spec sheet. Tell them you want your engine assigned to a performance engine builder in the shop. Have the block checked out the yin yang for every conieivable issue. Have them check every tolerance on absolutely everything paying particular attentioin to the crank. Tell them about your thrust issue and to not assume anything. Pay them to assemble your short block which they need to do anyway to verify it will all hang together like it should.. If it hasn't been balanced WITH your damper and flexplate, have it balanced. Tell them you want to know what they find for your own understanding.
This cost me around 800 bucks and it was money well spent. I sort of disagree to some extent with the nitrous man up there on the engine can't possibly be the problem. You could have a bent crank, journal/s out of spec. or out of alignment with the crank saddles. Misalignment on the mains journals. Uneven gap on the thrust on each side. I don't even know what all could set up this problem. The thrust surface being shaved off could just be a symptom of something fundamentally geometrially wrong in the engine.
Even after my block was bored .030 over, the manager of my shop, who personally oversaw my whole project and even personally file fitted my rings found some taper in the cylinders that he had one of his guys hone out. The cylinder to piston gap is still well within spec. The Probe srs pistons I'm running do run pretty tight to the cylinder walls so less slop than the old forged slugs.
They blanced my rotating assembly down to a quarter gram. Had to hone the damper to fit the crank. They also found that the Scat crank did not appear to be micro polished so they micro polished it. Once they had it together, they put the short block on a fixture that spun the crank while pumping oil through the oil passages to make sure the crank and rods were going to spin like they should and that it wsn't going to eat up a bearing or find some other problem they eitherr missed or created in the build and assembly. This way, they know that the work they did was right. They did this same thing with the long block in my Ford truck.
IF you haven't seen my engine start up post, the link to my youtube vid is down in the sig. It fired up, runs great, no metal in the oil. There are at least half a dozen things I could not have found that the shop did find and correct on my build. I simply do not have the tools nor the expertise needed to do that level of work. Shiela's motor gitter is now fully broken in and ready to drop in somewhere and run down the highway. IT waits on me.
Take all your short block parts to a real performance engine shop and work with them on a complete blueprinting spec sheet. Tell them you want your engine assigned to a performance engine builder in the shop. Have the block checked out the yin yang for every conieivable issue. Have them check every tolerance on absolutely everything paying particular attentioin to the crank. Tell them about your thrust issue and to not assume anything. Pay them to assemble your short block which they need to do anyway to verify it will all hang together like it should.. If it hasn't been balanced WITH your damper and flexplate, have it balanced. Tell them you want to know what they find for your own understanding.
This cost me around 800 bucks and it was money well spent. I sort of disagree to some extent with the nitrous man up there on the engine can't possibly be the problem. You could have a bent crank, journal/s out of spec. or out of alignment with the crank saddles. Misalignment on the mains journals. Uneven gap on the thrust on each side. I don't even know what all could set up this problem. The thrust surface being shaved off could just be a symptom of something fundamentally geometrially wrong in the engine.
Even after my block was bored .030 over, the manager of my shop, who personally oversaw my whole project and even personally file fitted my rings found some taper in the cylinders that he had one of his guys hone out. The cylinder to piston gap is still well within spec. The Probe srs pistons I'm running do run pretty tight to the cylinder walls so less slop than the old forged slugs.
They blanced my rotating assembly down to a quarter gram. Had to hone the damper to fit the crank. They also found that the Scat crank did not appear to be micro polished so they micro polished it. Once they had it together, they put the short block on a fixture that spun the crank while pumping oil through the oil passages to make sure the crank and rods were going to spin like they should and that it wsn't going to eat up a bearing or find some other problem they eitherr missed or created in the build and assembly. This way, they know that the work they did was right. They did this same thing with the long block in my Ford truck.
IF you haven't seen my engine start up post, the link to my youtube vid is down in the sig. It fired up, runs great, no metal in the oil. There are at least half a dozen things I could not have found that the shop did find and correct on my build. I simply do not have the tools nor the expertise needed to do that level of work. Shiela's motor gitter is now fully broken in and ready to drop in somewhere and run down the highway. IT waits on me.
Seriously though I agree with sticking to the 331. when you're trouble shooting something you have to consider everything and I do mean everything that was changed or altered. Otherwise it'll come back and bite you. I think half the problem was the first shop and the other related to the flex plate and converter as sportsroof69 suggested. A stacking of events that lead to a failure.
Rebuild the 331 and do a T5 swap.
A 5 speed trans is more fun and you won't have to worry about the converter.
I understand your dilemma though...unless you're 100% sure where the problem lies, it's a crap shoot regardless of which engine you put in. Sorry I can't be more help...other than my smart-*** suggestion above.
The LS motors are respectable but then so is the Coyote. I see a lot of engine dyno tests of the 2 and the Chevy guys will invariably set up a Chevy LS with a butt load more cubic inches than the Coyote. Totally biased. I have still as yet to find a real head to head between a Coyote and an LS. Probably never will because the Ford dyno magazine guys can be guilty of the same dirty tricks. Even when the Chevy guys rig the test, the old crusty dyno operator dudes will speak some pretty respectable things about the Coyote in comparison to the LS even with the cubic inch or cam or induction or head disadvantages.
I know exactly how you feel brother. I had a motor that ate 2 cranks and on the third time around I actually knew why but could not install that motor again. I was done with it - Sold it and bought a nice one from a rich guy who wanted a big block for his cobra. I knew it was stupid but I sure showed that POS!
As for how much money should you throw after bad money, this is probably the wrong crowd to ask. Most of us are in WAY over out heads.
The business school answer is sunk $$$ is no longer relevant except as a club for SWMBO when she gets mad; what is relevant is how much its gonna take vs the value of the car... I would sure assemble the trans to your next motor with the pan off and convince yourself its all good.
I know exactly how you feel brother. I had a motor that ate 2 cranks and on the third time around I actually knew why but could not install that motor again. I was done with it - Sold it and bought a nice one from a rich guy who wanted a big block for his cobra. I knew it was stupid but I sure showed that POS!
That's pretty much where I am, wanting to show that POS.
I called the machine shop today and told him to stop work on the 289. He had the block cleaned using hydro, hyper, or something like that that leaves the block looking like new, but that was all he had done. He seems more interested in diving into the 331 to find out whats what than the 289 anyway. Might get the motor pulled this weekend and off to him on Monday. I really don't feel comfortable with either approach anymore.
I was in a little local band for a long time and we had somebody that could really make one of these things sing. I played 12 and 6 string guitar. One of the dad's recorded us and I was surprised at how good we actually sounded. If you are standing in among all the instruments you don't always get the sense of how the sound blends together. People moved off and 2 of us finally started doing solo songs for church and then that died out. I can't play like I used to. I have arthritis in my hands and also carpal tunnel in my left.
I apologize for totally hijacking this thread for a couple of posts.
Take that 289 block and spray it down with Boeshield and wrap it in a couple plastic bags with a bag of desiccant.
I think you'll find that it won't take a rocket scientist to find the problem. It's probably something really simple and easily overlooked. The places I'd be looking are the crank pilot hole-converter nub and crank thrust surface finish. If the end play was set correctly upon assembly what else can it be?
Take wad of cash, throw at machine shop. have the shop get the 331 together and running if possible. Put engine in your car and with a huge smile lay some rubber.
Been reading this thread with interest. Just curious how does Boeshield compare to LPS 3. I can get LPS 3 pretty easily at Fleet Farm here in Minnesota.
Sorry for wasting space here but I answered my own question once I got home and onto the PC. Just never heard of Boeshield so I had to ask. Thought maybe it was the miracle rust preventative but it looks like what I was using, LPS 3, is mighty fine. Here is a snip on what I found on the web.
Conclusions
Our salt water test is admittedly harsh, and quickly produced results. After three days, most of the steel coupons were significantly rusty. Only three saltwater test panels showed no corrosion: Those coated with CorrosionPro Lube, CRC Heavy Duty, and LPS-3.
Of the remainder, the Boeshield T-9 panel showed the least corrosion, followed by the cured Shark Hide. (The cured vs. non-cured results support the notion that it pays to follow instructions. Most non-cured sides mimicked the control panel.)
In the freshwater test, the Shark Hide remained rust free. It might be the answer for stainless steel rigging, stern rails, etc., because it leaves no sticky residue—however, it’s an expensive solution.
At 63¢ per ounce, CRC gets the Best Buy nod. For day-to-day use, loosening sticky mechanical parts, or softening greasy deposits, WD-40 works and is inexpensive.
In our opinion, the perfect solution still evades us. Where iron-based alloys are unavoidable and stainless steel isn’t suitable, the best protection against the ravages of salt water is a coat of paint.
Where paint isn’t an option, long-term protection against rust requires the use of sticky, dirt-attracting coatings, like the top performers in this test.
I don't think your crazy at all. I'm rebuilding my 289 for my '66 GT purely to HiPo spec'. Wouldn't have it any other way. But I've been told I was crazy a time or two...especially my wife for comepletepy unrelated reasons.
Sell all of that stuff. You might take a little bit of a loss. Who cares? Not the end of the world. Buy stuff that works for whatever it is you really want in the end. Maybe you have to wait a little longer...again, not the end of the world. I'm in the same boat with my '65 coupe track car...not willing to compromise. Therefore, I wait. Hopefully I won't die or get killed before I finish it.
I totally agree with you in concept but it's my wallet thats taking the beating repeatedly. If I do go with the 289 I'm considering shipping the original heads out to Power Heads Power Heads - Performance Engineering. Might be cheaper in the end.
I'm certain those guys do excellent work. However, will you be competing with this motor/car? I'd say if not, do the port job yourself and have a local shop upgrade the valves. BTW, I would PM silverbluebp (Mark) and have some discussion with him on valve sizing. He has gone through some extensive testing with slightly smaller than the typical 1.94/1.60 with good results.
Why in all my years experience of working on cars have I never heard of a 331? Is that a factory engine or some sort of stroker or is this just an analogy used to describe a 289 thats been bored, longer rods.....Ok stroker I already said it
289 or 302 block. 3.25 stroke crank(half a dozen manufacturers now). 5.4 inch rods. Non-stock or specially made stroker pistons. Equals a 327. .030 over makes it a 331.
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Vintage Mustang Forums
4M posts
89.2K members
Since 2001
A forum community dedicated to vintage Ford Mustang owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about restoration, modifications, NOS parts, troubleshooting, VIN codes, and more!