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RnP vs Borgeson vs Manual+Quickener+EPS steering

9K views 23 replies 11 participants last post by  Kelly_H 
#1 ·
Join me in the joyous beating of a dead horse :grin2:

I'm planning out the upgrades to my car and have started focusing on the steering. I have a 66 coupe with the manual v8 19:1 steering box. I rebuilt it about 4 years ago but even after the rebuild it felt sloppy and I darn near had to put a steering wheel spinner on the thing to park it. With all the changes in suspension and stuff that I'm doing to it I want to upgrade the steering. It'd be super cool if I could get it to steer like a gokart :p and I'd really like to do away with the harpoon steering shaft if possible. Not that I'm planning to be getting into any front end collisions but, if I do, it'd be awesome if I wasnt impaled to the seat.

Use: hard street driving and occasional autocross. Since I do drive this thing a lot (or planning to...) and it's going to have 245 tires up front I'd like it to have power steering. Dont get me wrong...i like working out but I also like being able to park the car without breaking a sweat...also, in the spirit of full disclosure, the car will be lowered roughly 2" thanks to an UCA drop and 1" lowering springs

Option 1:
Unisteer / TCP power rack and pinion. ($1600 - $3000 depending on unit and accessories)
Pros: provides tight response, relatively bolt in, best road feel? (i dont have experience with this unit)
Cons: most expensive, possible increase in bumpsteer, not compatible with 70's big bearing spindles (?), quality control on some units, oil pan choices may be limited (351w block), vintage racing legality suspect

Option 2:
Borgeson power steering setup ($1100ish)
Pros: fairly inexpensive, uses the stock draglink and tie rods, can use whatever spindles you want, maintains stock appearance, vintage racing legal, quick steering ratio of 13:1 (or 14:1), drop in installation
Cons: power steering lines muddy up the cleanliness of the engine bay...that's really all I have hear...
** can the pump be used with a serpentine system?

Option 3:
Manual QR Steering box, Steering quickener, EPS ($800 - $2000 depending on sourcing of the EPS[kit vs salvage])
Pros: stock appearance, no lines to muddy up the engine bay, no leaks to worry about, no pump drawing power off the engine (3-4hp...is it even worth mentioning), probably the fastest steering system depending on the quickener to be used, uses the stock draglink / tierods, use whatever spindles you want, could be the most inexpensive depending on what you can dig out of the salvage yard
Cons: still have the harpoon, most fabrication to account for (EPS and quickener)


Help me decide what to do here. I'll probably be ordering the suspension late November / early December and would like to get the steering pieces at about the same time. I'm currently leaning towards the Borgeson unit and changing out all the old pieces (drag link, tie rods, etc) for new stuff.
 
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#2 ·
Speaking as someone who has upgraded their suspension my advice is not to jump in one and impulse and buy any system. Take the time to understand how the suspension works first. Think of any other possible upgrades down the line and how it I all work, together. A big part of why these carsdrive like crap is due to worn parts and antiquated alignment specs.

Learn about how everything works. New parts, a couple cheap and key modifications and it'll be a totally different car. My 66 was PS, so I have the 16:1 box and a Opentracker roller bearing idler arm. The steering is a little heavy for parallel parking but other wise has fantastic feel. I run 4° caster, the car tracks dead straight.
 
#3 ·
So here's my current list of planned upgrades for the suspension

SoT tubular UCA / LCA (i believe these are full rollers)
1" drop performance spring
already did the UCA drop
roller spring perches
adjustable strut rods
70's style big bearing spindles
The whole steering system, which ever i roll with, will be new

Admittedly, I have not researched what to set my alignment specs to. Given that I want to run the big bearing spindles, that probably takes the RnP system off the table.
 
#7 ·
This is your lucky day. This is exactly what I have done to my 66. I've also added a camber kit from Opentracker. Yes, everything on the SoT is bearing. I also have adjustable struts and 72 spindles and stock uncut GT spec coils along with Bilstein Sport shocks. Between the Arning drop on the upper arm and GT coils my front sits a good 1.5" lower in the front. You will run into a bump steer issue no matter what spindles you use. I contribute this to excessive travel of the front suspension. I noticed on my 66 even with all the spacers in the bump steer kit, the rod ends ran out of travel long before the suspension did. As a result the tires will do the typical toe in and not allow the suspension to return to normal because the tie rod/rod ends are bound up. The trick is to keep the suspension as much as possible out of this range IMO.

The difference between the 66 and later spindles is the later spindles have .500" less offset then the 66. Each degree of caster is roughly worth .100" in correction. As you add caster the tie rod moves closer to the road surface. As I see it, theoretically adding 5° caster with the later spindles will but bumpsteer characteristics about the same as a completely stock suspension with stock caster of 0°. Forget about sending the car out for alignment. At this level you need to be doing your own alignment. I run 4° caster and slightly over 1° negative camber. Car drives great.

With all the bearings the suspension is going to me much more compliant and ride a whole lot softer then it did with rubber bushings for the same or increased spring rate is what I noticed. It really isn't any nosier then stock. I don't worry about the Spear O Matic either. GM cars were front steer cars with the box right behind the front bumper. Ford are rear steer. The box is behind the front tire. By the time it hits you, the car has had a very severe impact.
 
#5 ·
I'd love to but I'm not arguing statistics and it's way down on my list of desires. I'll concede the likely hood of it is pretty slim since the speed at which that accident would have to occur would be one that would more probably snap your neck. My desire comes from the fact that, in the later years, Ford decided it was a bad idea to have a single iron shaft opting for a sectioned shaft.

I'd like to stay focused on what's the more performant option.
 
#6 ·
This is a nice pro-con debate that ultimately will result in you having to choose what you want the most.

First, keep in mind that if you go with a stock manual quick ratio box (for the EPS conversion), the quickest turn ratio you can get is 16:1. That will make it the slowest ratio (more turns lock-to-lock) of all of the options you have listed. However, it will retain the stock steering geometry and simplicity which is great. You can convert your column to a collapsible column - I believe that the American Powertrain EPS comes as a collapsible unit and that the junkyard conversions can be made collapsible if done right. So that may eliminate a point of concern.

Another thing to consider with the Borgeson steering is that the box will interfere with some headers as well as the manual clutch linkage. There are workarounds developed but I'm not sure how well they actually work because everyone's car is a little different. However, it's a good option for a quick ratio while retaining the stock steering gear. I've heard a lot of good things about it.

I'm in the Unisteer camp and I love that rack. It is not without its issues - needs to be slightly modified to bolt up to the car right, needs new fabricated lines that are actually the correct length, things like that. But I have over 30,000 miles on the thing and it is sharp and crisp and QUICK. It's something like 2.25 turns lock-to-lock and I couldn't go back to anything different after this. It is nice to be able to scoot out of bad situations quickly if needed, though it is not great for a jumpy driver probably. It also does not help you at all in the turn radius department, though I am actually fairly sure that it hits the steering stops - not sure what the deal is there.

So all of that information is nebulous but maybe may help you make a decision.

Personally, in the future if I ever come across money again (ha! like that'll happen), I will likely swap to a TCP quick steer manual rack and electric power steering. The only improvement this will have over the Unisteer rack is that I won't have to listen to the pump screaming at me in the corners anymore. Also, it will quit leaking on me.
 
#9 · (Edited)
I have the non coil over version of the Street or Track. Upper, lower arms, adjustable struts, 1" front bar, Opentracker roller spring perches and camber kit, roller bearing idler arm, Bilsteins, Baer bumpsteer kit and a Longeacre caster/camber bubble gauge. Yes, consider that a suspension part as well. GT coil springs in front, stock sagging leaf springs in back and 72 disc brakes in front. My car was power steering, now manual. Stock drag link. You get rid of the rubber bushing in the idler arm it takes a lot of monkey motion out. As you add caster it adds a lot of that stability you think of. It makes the car go straight without that wondering and that great feed back as to what the front tires are doing. It's like the steering wants you to confirm your input.

My 66 as it sits with the suspension done. Uncut coils.

 
#13 ·
Hang on while I wipe this egg off my face :-D

My apologies ma'am.

I'll make sure I get my research in prior to going one way or the other. Luckily I have some things (my car is a shell...i have a lot of things lets be serious) that I can do while I do my research.
 
#10 ·
I want to keep this discussion going about the possible pros / cons of both setups but, in light of that info, I think I might get a quick ratio manual box and the idler arm...likely replace everything steering and go from there. At least that way I can experiment with the EPS or sell the setup getting most of my money back and try something different when I have a much better idea of how the car behaves.
 
#16 ·
#17 ·
Yeah I know this subject has been debated but I was having trouble digging up a thread that weighed the merits of all 3 options with folks who've had these cars way longer than myself.
I didnt realize the Borgeson box was super huge and, since I'm going to run a 351w block where my header choices are limited from the git go, space is going to be a premium.
I think I'm leaning towards Woodchucks idea. I hadnt noticed (or just skimmed over) the quick steer idler arms. I believe the plan is going to be:

16:1 manual box
roller quick steer idler
baer bump steer reducer
--eventually add the EPAS system to the whole shebang

After researching prices this evening, it's actually not that bad on price either. I figure worst case, if I dont like it, I could get some of my money back out of it after giving it a try and head a different route...or save it for the next build

I realize everything has a give and take. I dont have much experience with these cars other than the 19:1 box w/ rubber bushinged uca / lca. and figure I should at least experience a more 'traditional' setup (please dont take offense).

I truly appreciate your guys taking the time to provide guidance.
 
#19 ·
I am happy that you have started this thread chaser as i am just going through the same with my 66 coupe but over the other side of the pond. I hope you don't mind me posting on your thread, i to want that kart feel like i have with my other cars.

I have chatted with shaun from SOT about the unisteer stuff and all that you read about the issues, he said that he does not have any problems with the Unisteer stuff but did say take a look at other R+P and educate yourself on them.

I have looked at the TCP and by the looks of it the rack body replaces the cross member and thus becomes a stressed part unlike the unisteer that looks to have a separate crossmember that the rack bolts to, i may be wrong but it is from what i can tell by looking at the photos and the videos on CJ web site. For that reason i don't like the TCP conversion.

As like you i want to change out the whole front end i started looking at the TCP weld in front end with double wishbone type front end but that looks like a hell of a lot of work to replace the front frame rails, but i can see how good it would work.

I have to say it is a minefield out there and i am still learning.
 
#20 ·
No worries at all jumping in the thread and welcome aboard!

I too dont like the TCP integrated crossmember. Although, I'm planning on running the TCP export brace and monte bar combo so that would help take some strain off the RnP. I need to do a lot more research on the two different units. My other hangup with the RnP units is that I'm kind of partial to the shelby cross member with the integral jack stand but that's purely a matter of preference I believe.

I didnt include the TCP wishbone since it wasnt a 'bolt in' type kit. I'm not against doing work...shoot I just finished adding 66 vert inner rockers to my car instead of subframe connectors but my goal for this car is to have the option to 'maybe' take it back to a stock configuration (outside of the chassis reinforcement) and apply some of the parts to a possible race car down the road (pun intended)

I'm starting to get of the mind that I'm going to try the manual box w/ the quick steer idler and see how that goes. I'll probably even add the EPAS to it to get a full evaluation. If I dont think it's working for me I'm going to switch to one of the manual racks and see how that goes.
 
#21 ·
I chatted with shaun for quite a bit on the phone (he is a fellow brit you know:pirate:) and was telling him how i was thinking about the quick steer idler and the whole works but again from searching on here i don't think it will give me what i want feel wise, is it better than stock, yes but does it give you that precise up-to date feel no i don't think it does.

Shaun basically told me how he did the same some years ago and yes it was better, but putting a rack on there or should i say a quick rack transformed the steering feel immensely.

I have to agree with you on the TCP wishbone kit, i am not at all averse to modifying my car, and have done the same as you with torque boxes etc, but cutting the front frame rails off is a bridge to far for me especially when mine are in such dam good shape.

I know you have not disused the rear end, but i do like the SOT rear coilover setup and have sort of made my mind up we'll 95% that i am going with that set up with a new 9" posi axle, just stuck on the front end side of things.
 
#22 ·
Man you and I are incredibly like minded.

For my rear I am going to go with a 9" trutrac, 3.89 gearing, 31 spline in front of a 408 spinning an Astro T5. I'm trying to stay focused on putting the car back on the ground. I'm aiming to have the body work done, suspension / steering in, and off to the painter by April...so much to do.
Although I'm currently leaning towards a watts link. Trying not to get the cart before the horse.
 
#23 · (Edited)
My current set up is a 19:1 aka slow:1 box, Granada spindles, 620 springs minus a half loop, home made adjustable rod end strutrods, lots of poly bushings ,KYB GAJ, UCA drop,225/50/16 on 16x7x4.5 At some point I'd like to get the Quick steer arms I think the amount of turning the steering wheel vs the effort of a faster ratio will be a good trade off staying with a manual steer car.
 
#24 ·
For those of you concerned about the TCP rack being an inadequate crossmember, check out #5 on this link here:
http://www.totalcontrolproducts.com/download/datasheets/RCK_DS_WEB.pdf

Now knowing that, you can decide for yourselves :) Yes, the Unisteer rack does bolt to a solid crossmember instead of becoming the crossmember itself. I just wanted to show that it seems that TCP has also engineered the hell out of it, just in a different way perhaps.

Some day I really need to take a driving vid of my Unisteer rack to show how much you have to turn the wheel for whatever you're doing, how easy it is to steer, how it acts in parking lots, turn radius, things like that. I think that would be colossally useful to everyone here! Will need to get a buddy to help out with filming or something, find a nice twisty empty back road and a parking lot, and maybe get Unisteer to pay me... :p ;)
 
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