My 302 - Page 2 - Vintage Mustang Forums

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post #16 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 09:42 AM
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Hydraulic Roller

Will manifold vacuum be a consideration in your cam decision (now, or anytime in the future)? "Cruiser" is a term that means a different thing to different people. Will your cruiser be equipped with P/S, P/B or air? These are all thing that will factor into your build decisions, if you don't want to be forking out more cash to redo things down the road. Believe me, I speak from experience!


'66 GT Fastback, 302, Edelbrock Top End, Holley 670 Street Avenger,
MSD Ignition, JBA Headers & 2.5" Exhaust , T5Z, Currie 3.55 Trac-Loc
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post #17 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by panabax View Post
I would not spend the money rebuilding the motor unless I was going to rebuild the motor. Boring the cylinders brings them back into spec so they are like new. Of course, you will also need new (oversized) pistons. If you are not going to rebore, you could try to just change out the bearings, hone the cylinders yourself, install new rings and "hope" for the best. Hope would be the strategy employed here, hoping that you did not waste good money on bearings and rings.

In your first post you say the motor needs to be rebuilt. What is the matter with it? The motor is the heart of your car. I understand budgets. You certainly got the block for a descent price. I would not cut corners rebuilding it it.

GT40 heads might help. However, heads can be replaced. You can do that later when funds allow (provided you build it with new heads in mind) but you can't go back and rebore the cylinders or hone the bearing surfaces without rebuilding the motor again.

Just my 2 cents.

Baxter
I really appreciate the advice. This is my first rebuild so I just want to make the best decisions. The seller said that is smoked on start up so he pulled it to replace the rings but decided to put a different engine back in the car.
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post #18 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:29 AM
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That engine will be the same 28 oz balance and will have the boss on the side of the block for the clutch equalizer ball stud if you have a manual transmission and use the stock clutch linkage. The heads are junk. They have have 69 CC chambers and very poor exhaust ports. You can pick up used GT40 heads pretty cheap. They'll be a huge difference over the stock heads. If the cylinder walls still have the cross hatching they'll probably not need boring. Best thing is to have a shop check the block out. I would go with either a hydraulic flat tappet or roller cam. There really won't be any difference in performance on a street motor. Experts say you needed around 280 advertised duration before you see an advantage in the roller design.

I was sort of in this spot a while ago with a fresh reman 302 around the same year along with a set of new GT40P heads. I thought about my actual plans, use and budget. The more I thought about it the more it made sense to change paths on my build and buy a used 97 Explorer GT40P motor. I sold my GT40P heads for $525 and bought the whole motor for $450. I needed new flywheel and balancer no matter which engine balance I went with, so that was a wash there. If anything it saved me money as my brother gave me a Mustang 5.0 clutch kit a long time ago. While new hydraulic roller cams are not cheap, used ones are and there are a lot of them out there. You do not have to match the tappets to the lobe or breAk them in. You simply swap the cam and reuse your old roller tappets. I bought a used 91 Mustang 5.0 cam which is slightly hotter for $60 used. There are a lot of good used roller cam motor parts out there cheap.

Here's a link to my build. I'm not saying you should or need to copy my build but rather to think exactly what you want to do, keep your options open and look outside the box to get to your goal.

Got my GT40P up and running in my 66

Tom

I'm not a complete idiot, pieces are missing.

Last edited by Huskinhano; 02-06-2017 at 10:33 AM.
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post #19 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rhutt View Post
Hydraulic Roller

Will manifold vacuum be a consideration in your cam decision (now, or anytime in the future)? "Cruiser" is a term that means a different thing to different people. Will your cruiser be equipped with P/S, P/B or air? These are all thing that will factor into your build decisions, if you don't want to be forking out more cash to redo things down the road. Believe me, I speak from experience!
I plan on having P/S, P/B and air. P/B will come first out of the three, then P/S, then air. Manifold vacuum?
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post #20 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:46 AM
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Your power brakes will require manifold vacuum to operate, unless you intend to go with a hydro-boost setup. As cams get more aggressive, vacuum generally goes down, often to a level that does not meet the manufacturers minimum spec. This is why you have to prioritize your wants and needs! Some of what you loose in being forced to use a mild cam can be made up elsewhere.


'66 GT Fastback, 302, Edelbrock Top End, Holley 670 Street Avenger,
MSD Ignition, JBA Headers & 2.5" Exhaust , T5Z, Currie 3.55 Trac-Loc
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post #21 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:50 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rhutt View Post
Your power brakes will require manifold vacuum to operate, unless you intend to go with a hydro-boost setup. As cams get more aggressive, vacuum generally goes down, often to a level that does not meet the manufacturers minimum spec. This is why you have to prioritize your wants and needs! Some of what you loose in being forced to use a mild cam can be made up elsewhere.
I was planning on using a booster. Thats what I thought you meant when you said power brakes.
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post #22 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Huskinhano View Post
That engine will be the same 28 oz balance and will have the boss on the side of the block for the clutch equalizer ball stud if you have a manual transmission and use the stock clutch linkage. The heads are junk. They have have 69 CC chambers and very poor exhaust ports. You can pick up used GT40 heads pretty cheap. They'll be a huge difference over the stock heads. If the cylinder walls still have the cross hatching they'll probably not need boring. Best thing is to have a shop check the block out. I would go with either a hydraulic flat tappet or roller cam. There really won't be any difference in performance on a street motor. Experts say you needed around 280 advertised duration before you see an advantage in the roller design.

I was sort of in this spot a while ago with a fresh reman 302 around the same year along with a set of new GT40P heads. I thought about my actual plans, use and budget. The more I thought about it the more it made sense to change paths on my build and buy a used 97 Explorer GT40P motor. I sold my GT40P heads for $525 and bought the whole motor for $450. I needed new flywheel and balancer no matter which engine balance I went with, so that was a wash there. If anything it saved me money as my brother gave me a Mustang 5.0 clutch kit a long time ago. While new hydraulic roller cams are not cheap, used ones are and there are a lot of them out there. You do not have to match the tappets to the lobe or breAk them in. You simply swap the cam and reuse your old roller tappets. I bought a used 91 Mustang 5.0 cam which is slightly hotter for $60 used. There are a lot of good used roller cam motor parts out there cheap.

Here's a link to my build. I'm not saying you should or need to copy my build but rather to think exactly what you want to do, keep your options open and look outside the box to get to your goal.

Got my GT40P up and running in my 66
Thank for the info. Are you saying that I need to just scrap this motor and buy a used explorer motor?
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post #23 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sixtysevenGTconv View Post
My thoughts my engine builder gave me for general evaluation:
When sorting thru what's good, what's not for a common small block: General if done by a prof and don't wanna be second guessing "if this if that" is in spec, it all can cost money to check. And once you start going thru engine eval process, where do you draw the line when some parts "marginal", replace others?
IF you don't do the engine work yourself (meaning assembly after machine work), my engine builder told me cost wise, cheaper to buy a short block crate engine, comes with a nice warranty?
I'm about doing thing right the first time and the engine is the heart of the car.
If you rebuild an engine (freshen it up" and it fails or smokes later, gotta start over.

But if you're certain just needs a few simple things, low mileage, then move forward with it.
Also newer 302's (not sure what years) the firing order is different than the classic 302. Others can answer that.
Thanks for the info. I want to do as much of it myself after the machine work is done. I want it done wright that way it is a solid motor for my car. I know money has to be spent, I just want it spend in the correct areas.
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post #24 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by OklahomaCoupe View Post
I was planning on using a booster. Thats what I thought you meant when you said power brakes.
A conventional booster operates off of manifold vacuum.


'66 GT Fastback, 302, Edelbrock Top End, Holley 670 Street Avenger,
MSD Ignition, JBA Headers & 2.5" Exhaust , T5Z, Currie 3.55 Trac-Loc
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post #25 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OklahomaCoupe View Post
Thanks for the info. I want to do as much of it myself after the machine work is done. I want it done wright that way it is a solid motor for my car. I know money has to be spent, I just want it spend in the correct areas.
Glad you're open to suggestions.
Keep reading all the ideas. Is this car a keeper for you?
But I'd price out a crate engine short block. Built with nice performance enhancements. And a warranty!

Also price out separately you piecing things together. keeping in mine it's on a used engine.

Then in end, if you plan to keep car, will current engine be ok for several years and happy with performance? Or save a bit, do other small repairs and get a "drop in" crate engine.

If you borrow a tool more than twice, you need to own it You get what you pay for!
George email: <myhawk@gsinet.net>
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post #26 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sixtysevenGTconv View Post
Glad you're open to suggestions.
Keep reading all the ideas. Is this car a keeper for you?
But I'd price out a crate engine short block. Built with nice performance enhancements. And a warranty!

Also price out separately you piecing things together. keeping in mine it's on a used engine.

Then in end, if you plan to keep car, will current engine be ok for several years and happy with performance? Or save a bit, do other small repairs and get a "drop in" crate engine.
This car is a keeper(especially since its a factory GT).Ive wanted a mustang ever since i was 16. It will be a very long time before I can afford a crate motor.

I don't mind piecing things together if I can do it correctly and save money. Thats why I figured I could do with only wanting a mild cam, 4 barrel intake/card and headers.

The main thing I'm going for is a strong motor that has decent power.
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post #27 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by OklahomaCoupe View Post
Thank for the info. Are you saying that I need to just scrap this motor and buy a used explorer motor?
No, what I'm saying that worked for me. Lay out exactly what your long term plan is and what's the best way to get there. While I had a fresh motor I wasn't stuck on having a fresh motor. These roller cam motors will go for 200K miles no problem is taken car of.

I will say it runs very, very well for a cheap stock type motor. It runs a lot better then my expectations. It idles nice, lots of torque and revs very easily.

Tom

I'm not a complete idiot, pieces are missing.
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post #28 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by OklahomaCoupe View Post
Thats why I figured I could do with only wanting a mild cam, 4 barrel intake/card and headers.
The main thing I'm going for is a strong motor that has decent power.
The more I read your posts, the more I believe you are looking for the performance of a stock hipo 289 (271 hp) with a couple performance upgrades. That should be no problem starting with a reasonable 302 and cast iron heads. Making a wise decision on the combination of the four components should exceed the K code numbers and give you the "fun factor" you want in a street driven "cruiser".


'66 GT Fastback, 302, Edelbrock Top End, Holley 670 Street Avenger,
MSD Ignition, JBA Headers & 2.5" Exhaust , T5Z, Currie 3.55 Trac-Loc
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post #29 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rhutt View Post
The more I read your posts, the more I believe you are looking for the performance of a stock hipo 289 (271 hp) with a couple performance upgrades. That should be no problem starting with a reasonable 302 and cast iron heads. Making a wise decision on the combination of the four components should exceed the K code numbers and give you the "fun factor" you want in a street driven "cruiser".
You are correct. So is the 302 that I have a reasonable 302? What would the cost of getting that be? Would that be do-able if the cylinders can be hoaned(if I'm lucky), with GT-40/GT-40P heads, 4 barrel intake/carb and headers?

If the cylinders have to be bored can the stock heads be used or GT-40 heads be used without having anything done to them? When it comes to the pushrods and similar components, do they have to be replaced?
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post #30 of 158 (permalink) Old 02-06-2017, 01:43 PM
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I did a little more research and found that Ford didn't use a 5.0 in their mustangs in 80,81. They did in 79, then again. In 82. In 80,81 they used a 4.2. That said your motor if in fact is 1980, probably came out of a truck, or passenger car. Problem is it's probably no more than 160 horsepower stock. You've got a long way to go to make that motor if you use it, to put out anywhere near 300 horsepower. It can be done, but your talking heads, boring, stroking motor, cam. I guess at this point tear it down, if internal block isn't damaged, have block magnafluxed to check for cracks, and build up. I tend to side with the other guys, and buy a quality rebuild. Summit has a pretty good rep. I've had friends but motors from them for Chevys with good results. They have a 300 hp engine for $3600.00, good to go.


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