An interesting part: the mythical 30573 8-vane water pump impeller (for early 289s) - Vintage Mustang Forums

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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
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An interesting part: the mythical 30573 8-vane water pump impeller (for early 289s)

Hello all,

Per usual, I am up to no good More specifically, I've been rustling around with water pump parts, which is never a good sign! This is going to be a long post but I feel that the backstory is important here to explain why I've started messing with this.

I have always been interested as to why Jane has run cool as a cucumber in comparison to "everyone else's" cars. It seems somewhat unfathomable that a 289, bored 0.040" over, with a hot cam in it, should run as cold as it always did. I always had a stock cooling system with a stock Motorcraft 192*F thermostat, stock water pump, stock brass 3-row radiator, and stock fan clutch + 7-blade fan. I mean STOCK! Despite this, the car would sit at idle in traffic for hours on end in 100*+ temperatures, with the A/C on, without breaking a sweat. Never rolled above 203*F.

Well, I refreshed the engine last year. Bore is the same, cam is the same, compression is bumped up half a tick but that's about it. All the parts match now, which is an improvement. At the time I also swapped to an aluminum radiator (the brass one got clogged and it cost the same to swap to a higher-quality aluminum radiator as it would have to rod out the old radiator) and put on a new water pump.

And now, somehow, the car gets a little warm at idle, and does it quickly too. You drop to idle and it will be up over 200*F within a minute. Never overheats and I have yet to see it get above 215*F, but still behaving abnormally compared to before. So I started looking for reasons why.

Well, I know it's not the new radiator. When I'm moving on the highway, I even have a hard time keeping the engine warm sometimes. So I can throw that out the window.

I know it's not the thermostat. I have a very accurate temp gauge, and it shows the thermostat in good working order. Furthermore, at lower ambient temps / on cloudy days, or when moving, she'll sit right at 190-192*F all day long. So I can throw that out the window too.

So that leaves one thing: the water pump. Now, what's in there currently is a Carquest pump. It fits, and it works, so those are both good things. However, I noticed that the impeller on the backside of the pump is one of the star-shaped open 6-vaned impellers. On the pump that I pulled off of Jane, the impeller is closed and has 8 vanes.

That kind of got me thinking: why are these impellers different? What's the benefit of closed vs. open, and number of vanes and orientation?

Interestingly, the Flowkooler pumps, which are touted as being able to reduce your engine temp significantly at any speed below 3000 rpms, utilize a closed impeller with 16 vanes. So maybe this is a water flow thing. Reduced cavitation and better linear flow would both be good for cooling. So maybe, just maybe, there's more to this than has been previously considered.

Now, for this impeller on Jane's pump: I looked just about everywhere to try to figure out where this thing comes from. The factory HiPo cars used a 6-vaned closed impeller, not one with 8 vanes - and they've got a different hole pattern and diameter. Most reman pumps sold today just use that star-shaped open impeller. So where the heck did this thing come from? More importantly, how would I find a new one? I wanted to test the effectiveness of this impeller vs. the open ones, but my old pump was definitely approaching "trashed" - all kinds of corrosion and wear - so I didn't want to put it back on.

I ended up sending my pump off to Wade at Flying Dutchman Water Pumps in Oregon. I contacted him and told him about the impeller I was looking for, and he immediately knew what I was talking about. He said he actually has one in a Bronco of his and that it dropped the car's idle temperature by 25 degrees when he replaced the generic parts store open impeller with this old OEM part. Apparently this 8-vane impeller was used on some early 260s and 289s (the ones without the water pump backing plates) from the factory. He believes that they were on HiPo cars. It is not reproduced, which is why you don't see it on pumps today.

Anyways, he happened to have one on hand and put it on Jane's old pump. He also installed a new bearing and resurfaced the pump body because the angle of the impeller was out of pitch. It looks awesome! Can't wait to install it and try it out.

He also sent back my old impeller at my request. I wanted to take some pictures of it, since I haven't been able to find any on the internet (a first!). More importantly, if the freshly rebuilt pump ends up changing how Jane's cooling at idle back to her "normal" state (cool as a cucumber at all times), then we'll know why and I will have the culprit on hand. If there's enough interest, I'll find a way to get it reproduced and then everyone can quit with the "my Mustang overheats all the time" threads here on VMF

Of course, this could all be an endeavor in which I'm just chasing my own tail, which happens sometimes. Even if it is, at least I've got documentation of this interesting different part, which is not listed anywhere I can find it. But if this does end up impacting low-RPM cooling, then I'll be able to contribute to the solution to what is arguably the biggest "problem" that people have with classic Mustangs!

Pics of the mysterious impeller (obviously, the corroded one is the old one, and the silver one is the new):







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Calamity Jane 1966 Modified Fastback - Driven semi-daily!
Wrecked and rebuilt even better
289 v8, 4-speed, 3.25 9" rear, goodies and stuff.

See my travel blog here for my adventures: http://calamityjaneroadtrip.blogspot.com/
2014: 10,051 mile, 2-month-long road trip around America
2015: 3,000 mile trip to Knotts in CA, CO to East Coast, an engine rebuild or two
2016: East Coast to TX, Hot August Nights, more trips to the East Coast
2017: Several long trips in the works! Stay tuned
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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 04:31 PM
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Looking forward to seeing what you come up with and how you are approaching this . Good Luck!
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 04:38 PM
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How you can reproduce that item
#1- 3-D printing, with a small amount of machining. $$$

#2- Machining on multi axis CNC machines from billet. $$$$$

#3- Having a wood pattern made and get them sand molded from cast iron. This is how the originals were made and most cost effective for large production runs.

I'd buy one if the price if right, might be a big seller if the aftermarket industry is interested.

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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 04:40 PM
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Very cool... keep us posted with results!

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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 05:35 PM
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How about your front cover guessing it has part of the volute built lnto it. Which works better than the pumps withthe cover plate. Ford did go back to that style in the last years of the 302/5.0. Not sure about impeller design in the last years though.
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 05:39 PM
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The 8 vane cast iron impeller is fairly common. I have at least five of the, The six vane small diameter one is for the HiPo. The stamped steel "star" like one is JUNK and doesn't move water. Flow cooler used to add a plate to the back side of them and it helped "some" the 8 vane is the way to go on lower rpm engines.
Randy

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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 07:17 PM
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The 289HP impeller has curved vanes to avoid cavitation at high rpm.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg 289HP.jpg (34.1 KB, 245 views)

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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 07:31 PM
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Tongue impellor

Kelly, you're spot on here. The cast impellors do a much better job moving water, BUT they cost more to make. Once upon a time, long long ago, you could buy those impellors, and reman water pumps with those impellors inside, over the counter at your friendly Ford dealer. They're harder to find now, most of the cheap water pumps have a six blade stamped, and a few of the somewhat better have an eight blade stamped. Some marine pumps have a cast bronze impellor, and a few of the nice aluminum performance pumps have a cast aluminum swirl impellor, like the one 22 showed us, just in aluminium. LSG
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 08:42 PM
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The fifth pic that shows the overall height and slope of those vanes, that very much reminds me of my Flowkooler, IIRC. It provides its extra flow by having a cavity area machined out for the impeller to be larger, more pitch and move more fluid. It works very well.
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 09:01 PM Thread Starter
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I am just wondering if the 8 vane cast impeller USED to be common... but now isn't because it isn't reproduced anymore. Since people tend to replace water pumps rather than rebuilding them (hello, $30 Carquest pump), they are actually putting a worse pump in their car without realizing it when they toss that pump with the 8-vaned impeller in the garbage.

Anyways, it'll be another few weeks before I get around to this, so it should be good and hot here in Texas by then Hoping that I'll actually see results.

As far as reproducing them goes, probably I would have to reproduce the impeller and then put it in a stock pump housing (with a good bearing) and then sell the whole assembly all as one. People don't seem very interested in rebuilding pumps themselves (and I don't blame them - I wasn't and still am not, ha!). We'll just see what happens. Maybe I could end up finding someone to repro the impellers, and then sell them on to certain water pump manufacturers or rebuilders like Wade and have them go from there so I'm not involved in the whole process. Because let's be honest, I don't know a damn thing about water pumps!
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Calamity Jane 1966 Modified Fastback - Driven semi-daily!
Wrecked and rebuilt even better
289 v8, 4-speed, 3.25 9" rear, goodies and stuff.

See my travel blog here for my adventures: http://calamityjaneroadtrip.blogspot.com/
2014: 10,051 mile, 2-month-long road trip around America
2015: 3,000 mile trip to Knotts in CA, CO to East Coast, an engine rebuild or two
2016: East Coast to TX, Hot August Nights, more trips to the East Coast
2017: Several long trips in the works! Stay tuned
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 12:11 AM
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I have some aftermarket casting of this style pump with 0 cooling issue

couldn't tell you how many or what style vanes it has it's been to long
Found this in a quick ebay search though
1963-1965 Ford Mustang, Fairlane 289ci HIPO "K code" NEW water pump rebuild kit | eBay

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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 01:59 AM
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This is super interesting, Kelly. I look forward to seeing what gets uncovered.

I'm going to finish putting a '64 Ranchero with a 260 back together in a couple months once school let's out. I'm not sure how useful it would be to your research but if I have to pull the water pump, I'll report back on what of impeller it has.

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Originally Posted by 2nd 66 View Post
I have some aftermarket casting of this style pump with 0 cooling issue

couldn't tell you how many or what style vanes it has it's been to long
Found this in a quick ebay search though
1963-1965 Ford Mustang, Fairlane 289ci HIPO "K code" NEW water pump rebuild kit | eBay
I had a similar style one and replaced it when the bearing started to go out. It really didn't help my cooling any but a FlowKooler only kept it a few degrees cooler.

This one was chucked in the recycling bin.

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Last edited by Target; 04-19-2017 at 02:02 AM.
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly_H View Post
I am just wondering if the 8 vane cast impeller USED to be common... but now isn't because it isn't reproduced anymore. Since people tend to replace water pumps rather than rebuilding them (hello, $30 Carquest pump), they are actually putting a worse pump in their car without realizing it when they toss that pump with the 8-vaned impeller in the garbage.

Anyways, it'll be another few weeks before I get around to this, so it should be good and hot here in Texas by then Hoping that I'll actually see results.

As far as reproducing them goes, probably I would have to reproduce the impeller and then put it in a stock pump housing (with a good bearing) and then sell the whole assembly all as one. People don't seem very interested in rebuilding pumps themselves (and I don't blame them - I wasn't and still am not, ha!). We'll just see what happens. Maybe I could end up finding someone to repro the impellers, and then sell them on to certain water pump manufacturers or rebuilders like Wade and have them go from there so I'm not involved in the whole process. Because let's be honest, I don't know a damn thing about water pumps!
It's not well known, but many auto parts stores can actually get your pump rebuilt.

As for the impeller, the Ford Racing catalog offered a curved-vane iron impeller for many years.

That's probably the way to go. Have the impeller made, and sell them. The rest is up to the buyer. Deadnutson offers the 1970 BOSS impeller for $125, but they are out of them just now.

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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Target View Post
This is super interesting, Kelly. I look forward to seeing what gets uncovered.

I'm going to finish putting a '64 Ranchero with a 260 back together in a couple months once school let's out. I'm not sure how useful it would be to your research but if I have to pull the water pump, I'll report back on what of impeller it has.



I had a similar style one and replaced it when the bearing started to go out. It really didn't help my cooling any but a FlowKooler only kept it a few degrees cooler.

This one was chucked in the recycling bin.
Eeewww that's nasty ,,But just for reference the pump I have is the early aluminium version with no backing plate

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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kechke View Post
How you can reproduce that item
#2- Machining on multi axis CNC machines from billet. $$$$$
This is the way I would go. The individual part cost is higher but there is no tooling and you can make only one if you like. Tumble the part to remove sharp edges then hard anodize it. Lots of places will do all the work, here is one:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Pro-Pr...55928054447245

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Last edited by Mach1 Driver; 04-20-2017 at 06:58 PM.
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