well honestly i think it pretty much has always been this way, i just didn't know if it was how the engine was setup or built. I am not saying it doesn't run good, it does at anything but idle. It pulls hard and feels pretty good. It did stumble a little, but I think that was fixed with springs for the rods and a little richer mixture on the idle screws according to your suggestion to read the manual for the carb. I guess that wasnt clear after about the second page of this thread, since we got on the topic of the idle. I just dont understand how my idle can drop to a certain rpm from pretty much anywhere I set it. And its ridiculously hard to get started after hot and sitting for a few minutes. As for the idle speed screw, im not sure what you mean, but i would say i have 1-2 turns on the screw to keep the idle up and the throttle plates are barely cracked open.
and it is absurdly inconsistent with the idle. I can get it idling decently one morning enough to drive, go back out the same afternoon, and it will barely crank or run.
That's odd. When I used to have that problem, it was because fuel was leaking into the intake manifold when the car set. You have a mechanical fuel pump?
"well honestly i think it pretty much has always been this way, i just didn't know if it was how the engine was setup or built....... "
And
" I just don't understand how my idle can drop to a certain rpm from pretty much anywhere I set it. And its ridiculously hard to get started after hot and sitting for a few minutes. As for the idle speed screw, I'm not sure what you mean, but i would say i have 1-2 turns on the screw to keep the idle up and the throttle plates are barely cracked open."
This idle problem existed before the carb swap and hasn't really changed? That's a 4160 remanufactured by Holley, likely the carb is OK. The settings may be wrong but the carb is probably close. A couple of things with this: there are 2 small vacuum ports on this carb, one on the right (pass) side of the front metering plate, and one below it on the front of the base plate. What is connected to these and which ones? I haven't heard anything about Idle MIXTURE adjustment (maybe I missed that? If so sorry). There are 2 screws, one on either side of the front metering plate, between the float bowl and the carb body. They need to be adjusted the same amount and correctly to get a correct idle. Start those at 1-1/2 to 2 turns out from lightly bottomed out. Also, does it change the idle significantly if those are turned all the way in? If so that will prove beyond a dought that there is a big vacuum leak, or not if not. Lastly on the carb, what base gasket did you use? I always use either the really thick one or seriously, 2 of the thin ones to get a really great seal.
Lastly, I know you are running the Painless wiring and that is excellent, but if I'm reading this correctly the problem existed before the carb swap and a Pertonix I or II acts exactly like this when starving for voltage. It wouldn't hurt to put a VOM on the power side of the coil and see what it reads. A one wire altenator does not start charging until it gets some RPM's. Crappy idle and hard, eratic starting is classic low voltage Pertonix symtoms.
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Pat, I would stick a vacuum gauge on this first before I ran the valves, it's going to to tell you if the intake or valves are leaking, at least the intake valves. Those are still real possibilities even with the re-torque.
This thing isn't just over-cammed is it?.........
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Yes it will die if i turn the idle screws all the way in, they are pretty good and adjusted i think. I think your question about the cam may be a step in the right direction...but I think its also the cam combined with the torque converter being too tight and too low of stall. I don't know what the stall is, but I am assuming it is no where near the 2200rpm that I asked for when the transmission was built. I can get it to idle pretty good as low as 850rpm OUT OF GEAR. But as soon as it goes in gear...bam straight to 650rpm, even it was idling at 1150 rpm. 850rpm brings it down to 650rpm...and then it is barely able to idle and pretty rough. I have to use right much brake to hold it from moving as well. The only thing that really concerns me other than that is the vibrating needle on the a vacuum gauge. I have a video of it if i could find a place to upload it.
As for the voltage, I remember it being a little over 14.1V at the coil when running. I am using ported vacuum, 14deg initial timing (as suggested by edelbrocks manual). I have used everything from 8deg to 20deg initial and none really helped so I leave it at 14deg.
after calling 3 different torque converter manufactures, they all agreed that the wrong torque converter is in the car. right now it has a huge 12-13 inch factory style converter (although the builder said it stalled at 2000rpm) and that was the result of all my idle in gear problems and probably a stumble when it changes gear (esp 3rd and 4th). They said I need a 10inch 2400rpm stall to make it right... worth an "expensive" try i guess.
OK, if you are over 14V at the coil at the 650RPM idle speed you can rule that part out for now.
The fact that the idle mixture adjustment is 'adjusting' also pretty much rules out that there is a serious vacuum leak at the carb. Just for continuity, if there is a vacuum leak at the carb then the air the leak flows takes the place of the idle mix screws and renders them ineffective.
I missed the part about the bouncing vacuum gauge. Does it smooth out when the engine comes off idle when the engine smooths out? Does it not bounce when it's idling nice out of gear?
A 2000 RPM torque converter should load the engine very little in gear at idle. You're right, it doesn't sound like a 2000 RPM converter. Still it bothers me that it will run smooth at 850 RPM out of gear and when it drops to 650 in gear then it dumps out. Same issue with it idling at 1100 and still dropping to 650. That brings us back to vacuum SIGNAL (bouncing needle), paragraph above. Pat?
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IMO, an 11" converter would be minimum with this combo. That said, the symptoms indicate low efficiency and power at idle, which focuses on the engine.
OP, what happens if you brake the car in 2nd and roll off idle with the throttle? Say, try to bring the rpm up to 1800 or so. How does it sound?
It sounds fine from 2nd, but an even worse result that 1st as far as idle in gear. That vacuum gauge does vibrate (although a little tighter vibration) as the rpm rises off idle.
but I talked to 3 of the top manufactures (B&M, TCI, and Precision) of torque converters today without telling them my problem at first, and they all said the same thing. That I need a 10 inch 2400rpm stall converter based on all my engine and rear end specs. After that I told them I had a 12 inch "2000rpm" supposedly rpm stall in there now and they said it probably didnt even want to run once in gear...YES CORRECT. I also told them it took way too much brake pedal to hold the car at a stop when in gear, and each one said the torque converter was too large with too low of stall, a classic symptom I guess. They said that converter needed about a stock 351 to turn right, not my little 289 with upgraded cam. So i pulled the transmission and ordered the TCI 10 inch which has an advertised stall of 3000rpm and said it would stall at about 2400rpm with my setup. Should be here tomorrow and I will let you know the results after all is in.
Last edited by kdillard21; 11-04-2009 at 09:33 PM.
I think you are on the right track with the torque converter, but if you are seeing gas sitting inside the intake manifold after sitting a day and the car won't start shortly after turning it off, I would be checking the floats on you carb. Those are classic signs of floats that are water logged or have a pinhole leak or poor adjustment. Try turning off the engine and immediately look down the carb to see if it dumping gas. Check your oil for gas too.
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