Should I Consider This Fraud? - Vintage Mustang Forums

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post #1 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 01:12 PM Thread Starter
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Should I Consider This Fraud?

I'd like to find out from you guys what your take on this is, and if I should be concerned about it: A 65 pink mustang just went up for sale on Hemmings.

(Here's the link: Hemmings Motor News: Auto Dealers - Hemmings Auto Classifieds feature cars for sale from auto dealers nation wide. )

My concern is that the car looks like mine. In fact, the photo IS my car. The photo was originally posted to Flickr.com by a car show buff. Here's the link to the original photo:

1965 Ford Mustang Convertible on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

The ad describes all of my car's options perfectly, and the picture is my actual vehicle that he decided was nice enough to use in this ad.

Should I be worried about this? I'm on the fence about calling him and demanding that he remove the photo of my car, but I'm not sure if I could really accuse the dealer of fraud or misrepresentation and demand he remove it.

My biggest concern is that I found out when friends of mine started calling me to make sure everything was alright. They saw the ad, recognized my car, and wanted to make sure I was okay because they couldn't believe I would be willing to part with the car short of some family crisis. It's embarrassing to get those sorts of questions, but at least I know my car buddies are looking out for me! What do you guys think? Should I do anything? If so, what?
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post #2 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 01:29 PM
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They say coming soon which is strange. Maybe they are getting burned and don't know it yet? I would definitely place a call to them and ask for the manager or owner and explain to him that that is your car in the picture and that they are misleading/deceiving their customers.

In my opinion, them posting a picture of a car that they do not have for sale is fraud...it's deceit of potential buyers that the car pictured (which clearly has been lovingly restored) is not actually the vehicle they have for sale. It's worth the phone call in my opinion.

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post #3 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 01:56 PM
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It's a sadly very common form of fraud. Don't confront the thief- Contact Hemmings and alert them to the fraud. You are witnessing a crime- doing nothing makes you an accomplice.
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post #4 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 01:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22GT View Post
It's a sadly very common form of fraud. Don't confront the thief- Contact Hemmings and alert them to the fraud. You are witnessing a crime- doing nothing makes you an accomplice.
The more I look, this car is advertised everywhere. AOL autos, auto trader classic, vast.com, automedia, you name it, the car is listed there. Should I try to contact all of these vendors?
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post #5 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Teambenya View Post
The more I look, this car is advertised everywhere. AOL autos, auto trader classic, vast.com, automedia, you name it, the car is listed there. Should I try to contact all of these vendors?
If you mean Craigslist, Hemmings, eBay, etc., yes. Don't contact the crook.
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post #6 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 02:23 PM
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Once the non-copyrighted photo is in the public domain, the internet, anyone is free to use it.
It is only fraud if they claim the photo is the exact car. They will probably just claim the car is 'similar to', or if they are cocky they may say 'prove it is a photo of your car and not ours'.

I'm no lawyer, but I can't see how you are an accomplice if you do nothing. They took a photo from the public domain, that is not your responsibility.

Either way it is sleazy and everyone is correct, shoot emails with links to all the vendors.
It would piss me off.
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post #7 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patches View Post
Once the non-copyrighted photo is in the public domain, the internet, anyone is free to use it.
The photo in question does have a copyright. Look again at the Flickr page. At the very least, the ads are misleading.

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post #8 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patches View Post
I'm no lawyer, but I can't see how you are an accomplice if you do nothing. They took a photo from the public domain, that is not your responsibility.

Either way it is sleazy and everyone is correct, shoot emails with links to all the vendors.
It would piss me off.
If you see a burglar coming out of your neighbors' house and do nothing, you are now keeping the thief's secret, in effect, or result, concealing his crime. An accomplice.

Imagine if your car was stolen, and you found out your neighbors saw the whole thing and did nothing. I imagine you'd be pissed at them.
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post #9 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 03:06 PM
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I don't see a coming soon in the hemmings ad.

Send them an email and ask for the vin# and see if yours appears.
Maybe they have thier eye on your car and are seeing if there could be a buyer for it before they tow it away.

If it's already broken....I can't hurt it.
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post #10 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 04:20 PM
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The photo in question does have a copyright. Look again at the Flickr page
OK, I read the disclaimer. That simply say photos on Yahoo MAY be copyrighted and issued a disclaimer absolving Yahoo from copyright infringement.
They also say they may terminate your permissions if you try to use copyrighted material.
They do not claim any photo posted is copyrighted.

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you are now keeping the thief's secret, in effect, or result, concealing his crime. An accomplice.
This makes sounds right from a common sense point of view, but basically unprovable and difficult to prosecute.
Especially concerning a photo from the internet, without examining the original digital file or negative.

None of which is likely to happen in this situation.

I'm simply saying that to imply an 'accomplice' label on Teambenya for his action or inaction is a little harsh.

Anyway, I am in agreement about what everyone is saying. Those guys are low lifes and wreck it for legitimate sellers.
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post #11 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patches View Post
They do not claim any photo posted is copyrighted.
They do state that it's copyrighted. Here, I circled it so you can find it.



Unless explicitly specified under another license, all content is copyrighted as soon as it's published. That copyright is in effect until 70 years after the author's death.

Anyway, with respect to the OP, I'd suggest he contact the companies with the misleading ads posted and ask to have them removed.

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post #12 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patches View Post
This makes sounds right from a common sense point of view, but basically unprovable and difficult to prosecute.
Especially concerning a photo from the internet, without examining the original digital file or negative.

None of which is likely to happen in this situation.

I'm simply saying that to imply an 'accomplice' label on Teambenya for his action or inaction is a little harsh.
I'm not talking law, I'm talking ethics, which sadly has little to do with law. I don't care what "can be proved legally", I'm talking about what's right and what's wrong, and ignoring a crime in progress is wrong. No gray area here as far as I'm concerned. It's not my place to prosecute a crime, but it is my obligation as a citizen to notice a crime, and report it.

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post #13 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22GT View Post
It's a sadly very common form of fraud. Don't confront the thief- Contact Hemmings and alert them to the fraud.
I agree, that's what I'd do. Let Hemmings knock the guy off.

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post #14 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 04:58 PM
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photobucket has a provision that you click if you dont want your photos downloaded ,BUT that doesnt prevent someone from photographing the pictures on the monitor. i dont konw if flicker has that. once you post a foto its considered public use unless you copyright it so it cannot be downloaded. it isnt illegal to post a photo of an exact dupilicate as long as "STOCK PHOTO" or not the "NOT ACTUAL ITEM" is in the add as many ebay adds are like that. but it seems from the add that this photo is said to be the actual car and since its your car thats illegal and i would call hemmings and if the foto isnt pulled i would call the police fraud division and if they cant help i would call the FBI.

Last edited by supershifter2; 12-26-2009 at 05:01 PM.
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post #15 of 44 (permalink) Old 12-26-2009, 05:31 PM
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Well Obsidian and 22Gt, you guys are working really hard to nitpick your points. We basically agree on the main issue.

[qoute]You are witnessing a crime- doing nothing makes you an accomplice. [/qoute]
I still think this is a harsh comment to make, especially since Teambenya is being proactive by posting in the first place.
Wiki articles and all.

I read the copyright policy at the bottom of the page.
Says nothing about all material being automatically copyrighted. I didn't notice the copyright symbol, as it is sort of grayed out on my screen.
Glad I am not a lawyer, my clients would be in bad shape.

So should Teambenya go after them for copyright infringment?
Would it be worth the effort?
Would that change anyones behavior?

Is it fraud if no deal takes place, or simply misrepresentation at this point?
I'm too lazy to look that up. I would if it was in the shop manual.

My entire point is simply that it is easy to steal pictures and text off the internet.
I agreed that about the only practical thing to do is to notify the vendors mentioned.

Sometimes people get away with this sort of stuff because it can be so difficult to make anything serious happen to them.

Like when sales people still call, even though your on the do not call list.
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