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Old 07-10-2011, 10:09 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default T5 Transmission Pull-Apart with Pictures and Questions

Hi, VMF,

I installed a World Class T5 transmission into my '65 Mustang. The unit was rebuilt, and on my first test drive I heard very loud gear whine / whining. I'll describe more detail:

- At idle, I could hear "rotational" sounds coming from the tranny a soft whirring sound that I've not hear from my other manual transmissions.

- Pushing in the clutch stopped these sounds and the transmission was quiet at idle.

- It shifts fairly easily into all gears, but on the road all gears produce alot of noise / whine.

- First gear is fairly loud, second is about the same, third gear sounds school-bus (very) loud, like the radio will barely drown it out. Forth is the quietest, but quite noticeable. Fifth is just barely louder than 4th.

- After about 50 miles on the transmission, it started to make a very loud "BRRRRR"-ing sound on deceleration. Sounded almost like gear teeth chewing into the side of the box.

I pulled the gearbox out and I found three things that looked strange. I also have quite a few pictures.

Questions:

- When I opened up the transmission (using a rebuild book as a guide). Overall the tranny looked clean inside and the block rings, etc. looked new (at least to me).

I saw that the rear mainshaft outer bearing race was not set all the way into the case. This seemed strange to me because every bearing race I've ever seen is always pushed in, either to seat directly into a groove, or with shims. I used very gentle pressure with a screwdriver and it popped out into my hand.

I checked my T5 rebuild book (How to Rebuild and Modify your Manual Transmission.) and there just isn't much information on this specific part, it says "Install the rear mainshaft outer race." and that's it. It does have a picture of the race, and it appears to hang out (or not be flush with the case) just like mine was. It just seems strange to me that it would be so lightly installed.

- The fifth-gear shift fork showed signs that the synchronizer assembly was rotating on it and chewed away part of the metal and the wear pad was pretty much gone. Not sure what happened here, I planned to replace the wear pad and see if there are any adjustments that I can make, or perhaps it's related to the rear race, pushing the fifth gear mechanism backwards into the fork.

- The gear that's on the input shaft (first gear?) looks blue on the center tips of the teeth, like it got too hot at some point, perhaps before I owned it. All of the gears look pretty beat-up when I compare to the manual. I probably should change that gear at a min?

Hopefully this pictures link will work.

Flickr: robjester's Photostream
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Old 07-10-2011, 10:32 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Greetings, Rob;

You have what we used to see other people define as a rebuilt trans for sure. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but this trans is in need of some serious money.

1) The input shaft/main drive gear has clearly been overheated from low lube level. This in turn will have ruined the gear on the front of the cluster, and most likely the front bearing on the cluster. Same for the input bearing. You should inspect the pocket bearing, between the input shaft and main shaft. It is probably damaged as well. What is the tooth count on the gear in your 4th picture above? I have a sneaking suspicion you have a 4 cylinder unit as well.

2) The bearing you are concerned about on the rear of the mainshaft is held in position by the extension housing. When you remove the housing, the bearing will slide out to a position like that shown in your pictures.

3) The 5th gear fork is most likely damaged from lack of lube, and from misalignment caused by the problems with the front end bearings.

May I ask what lube you put in this trans? Not that it's a factor at this point, but just curious.

The money involved would not make this unit worthwhile to rebuild. Contact a reputable Tremec dealer and get one of the new 251 units. Full part number is 1352-000-251. This is the latest T5 with all the upgrades and improvements. It come with a close ratio gearset (2.95:1.00 first gear ratio), high alloy gears, Cobra style pocket bearing (tapered roller bearing), and reverse synchro asy( stops all internal motion when selecting reverse. Have seen a few units without this feature, though). And, everything is new with zero miles. Make sure you specify a new box, not a rebuilt or refurbished. You will be far and away ahead of the game to go this route.

If you have any additional questions please to not hesitate to ask.

Don

Last edited by PrecisionTrans; 07-10-2011 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 07-10-2011, 11:13 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Don,
Thanks for the information, bad news is still useful!

- I used Royal Purple ATF and filled it with 3 quarts to the lower edge of the top fill plug.
- I just took some additional pictures of the input shaft.
- Wondering if perhaps these gears were burnt up when I received it, I've put less than 100 easy miles on it and I've kept 3 quarts of lube in it.
- The gear on the input shaft has 23 teeth on it, does that make sense?

I'll start looking at the new Tremec unit.
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Old 07-10-2011, 12:17 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Tongue from where ?

NC, from whom did you get the trans, and who claims to have rebuilt it ? I want to avoid them. There are many different T5s out there, lots of four and six cylinder models, and lots of folks who don't know the differences between them. I went to a tranny shop to look at purchasing a T5 they had, they said rebuilt to 'world class specs'....... I put it into first and spun the input while watching the output, and counted the 1st gear ratio at about 3 and a third to 1....showing it to be a 3.35 4cyl box. I told them no thanks, I want the 2.95 first. The guy really didn't understand why a 3.35 first wasn't better.....its all world class stuff in there, he said. That was a guy who owns a trans shop. To be fair, I think he mostly does autos. But if his men don't know how to do a manual......would you want a trans from them ? There are supposed to be casing numbers and tags on a T5 that tell you what it is, or at least was the case started as. I don't know them from memory, maybe Precision can tell you. The teeth count is different on the gears as well, but I don't know the numbers from memory. Can you return what you have ? It sound like you didn't get what was promised. LSG

I want to add that there is nothing, repeat, nothing wrong with a rebuilt trans. But it has to have been done by guys who know how, and the correct components must be installed.

Last edited by LSG; 07-10-2011 at 12:20 PM. Reason: added Post Script
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Old 07-10-2011, 12:40 PM   #5 (permalink)
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LSG;

A 3.35 first gear is not a 4 cylinder ratio. It is the ratio used from 1985 to 1995 for 3.8 and 5 litre engines. Early 4 cylinder turbos used a 4.03 ratio and later ones switched to 3.50. All T5s used by Ford from 1985 onward, even the 4 cylinder units from 1987 were World Class units. World Class refers to the style of synchros and bearings used in the units, not the gear ratios.

Don
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Old 07-10-2011, 12:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Allmost all factory installed 5.0 T-5's had a 3.35 first gear, 2.95 1st gear ratio is the stronger aftermarket box or very early non world class T-5's. 4 cylinders had a 1st gear ratio closer to 3.97, 4.00 except SVO's.
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Old 07-10-2011, 12:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Thanks everyone, from Don's input, sounds like I need a new unit. I had picked this one up pretty cheap and it's my fault for trying to save a buck.
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Old 07-10-2011, 01:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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my 94 cobra came with factory 2.95 first gear. Yours is doing exactly what happened to mine in my cobra when i bought it used. It had gotten run low on ATF and was burnt up. I ended up calling Hanlon motorsports and ordered a complete rebuild kit, new cluster shaft, input shaft, new fifth gear, but the best thing i got was his How To Rebuild A T-5 video, it was great.
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Old 07-10-2011, 01:03 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Tongue T5s

Well, okay then guys, I know less about T5s than I should. I wanted the 2.95 gears for strength- IIRC correctly, the lower the ratio, the less the shafts try to separate from each other. What I really want is a TKO 5 or 600, but that isn't in my budget, so I'm stuck with my auto and my already paid for but not installed AOD. LSG
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Old 07-10-2011, 01:07 PM   #10 (permalink)
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LSG;

You score 100% for your assessment of gear ratio versus strength. Strength comes from spreading the load over a large tooth area.

Don
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Old 07-10-2011, 11:19 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Glad you got the info straightened out . . . this is how "experts" are made When you press in the clutch you stop the input shaft and cluster from spinning. Your noise at idle is from this, probably the bearing. As the noise increased you were using the ratios from the mainshaft to the cluster; putting more stress on the cluster than just idling. Its hard to say exactly, you just got a bad trans. Its wasn't rebuilt at all, or not correctly. The shafts could have been shimmed incorrectly, who knows?? Sorry to hear of your problem.

Precision . lubes?? Here's one for you all to bounce around. I run MTL in all my T5s. I have for years and years . . and years and years I have an '85 T5 that I have never cracked open . . running on MTL. My '95 Cobra . runs MTL. I swear by it and . . Bob Hanlon to told me to use it many, many years ago. I use it on all my rebuilds as well. Hard to fault someone that has been using it for over 20 years and not a single problem.
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Old 07-11-2011, 02:27 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobra94svt View Post
my 94 cobra came with factory 2.95 first gear. Yours is doing exactly what happened to mine in my cobra when i bought it used. It had gotten run low on ATF and was burnt up. I ended up calling Hanlon motorsports and ordered a complete rebuild kit, new cluster shaft, input shaft, new fifth gear, but the best thing i got was his How To Rebuild A T-5 video, it was great.
No it didn't. The 2.95 gearset was ONLY used in 83-85 non world class t5's and nothing else. The 2.95 gear ratio you're referring to came on what you're thinking of as the t5z trans, which was a ford racing catalog order only tranny. NO oem ford ever came from the factory with a t5z.

The 93/94/95 cobras shared the mainshaft and pocket bearing that the z trannies had, but the gearset was still the standard 3.35 world class gearset, and not a t5z trans. That pocket bearing adds maybe 10-15 pounds more torque rating to the trans, but that's it (maybe a little more reliability)

I also have to completely disagree on the above t5 not being worthy of a rebuild (based on what I've seen so far). I build these things on the side for the local mustang community just as a hobby, and you wouldn't believe some of the t5's that I've saved b4.

What you need is a simple inspect and replace. If there was no grinding, then you're ok to re use your existing syncro's. The bearings can also be inspect/replace as necessary, but to be on the safe side, since you had noise, a new bearing kit is very cheap.

A used input shaft can be had for $50-75 tops from a local trans supply shop(if you don't know one, try anaheim gear, they'll ship, or call a local trans shop and ask where they buy their parts from, then call that place), and "if" you need a new cluster shaft, they can be had used for $50-100. I buy them new locally I think for $100-125 if memory serves.

a NEW t5z will set you back $1300 plus ship.....

before you trash that thing, tear it all down and inspect everything closely. If it's not all burnt up, then rebuild it.

If it is burnt, you can get a 2.95 t5z gearset to add into that yourself to convert it over for $400 for the import gears (I've built 5-6 of them with no issues) or $500 ish for all tremec,....and this includes NEW 1,2,3,gear, new 4th/input shaft, and a new cluster shaft...re use your main shaft, case, sliders and 5th and you've got a z spec upgrade for $500 plus your time...plus new bearings or whatever else you need.

gearbox.com has these kits available.

http://www.thegearbox.org/catalog/it...32/3532263.htm

this is the rebuild kit i'd suggest

http://www.thegearbox.org/catalog/it...32/3531891.htm

under $600 for everything, do it yourself, save $700
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Last edited by v8only; 07-11-2011 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 07-11-2011, 02:50 AM   #13 (permalink)
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that gear got real hot and is no good.
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Old 07-11-2011, 07:12 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Tongue T5s

Y'all could be correct, I'm thinking of the T5Z. If I can get a deal on a T5Z, I'll run that for awhile. I'd consider it like a grenade with the pin pulled....but might be okay for awhile. IIRC, the T5s have a 3 inch spacing, the toploaders and their descendants, the Tremec TKOs, have 3.25 shaft spacing, and the Richmond/Nash trans has 3.5 inch spacing. The wider the shaft spacing, the more power the box can take. LSG
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Old 07-12-2011, 09:43 AM   #15 (permalink)
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the t5z will handle 450 hp street power just fine for long periods of time....very few people make that much HP.....it's track abuse and power shifting that kills the t5. If you're not into racing....the t5z is a great trans/
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