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Old 08-14-2011, 12:07 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I too don't see anything in the lifter valley.. Just an orange hue that my 5.0 also had (no rust though, in my 5.0).
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Old 08-14-2011, 12:31 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I pulled the heads on my '65 to clean out the carbon etc. and to see what I had. It had not been run in over 14 years and it did not look nearly that bad. Looks like it may have had 65,000 original miles on it. Removed the carbon deposits and re-assembled. Runs great and compression looks good.
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Old 08-14-2011, 01:20 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Engine and heads are coming out and going to the machine shop. Hopefully just a hot tank, bearing and ring set, and valve job. We'll see.

No rust or carbon in the lifter valley, just a mix of oil and coolant drips when I pulled the heads. Block drain valves are STUCK, so I made quite a mess pulling the heads. PITA!

I'm past being angry at myself for messing with a perfectly good engine in April. I'm excited to work on the car again and get her on the road. Obviously I've now learned to leave it well enough alone next time.

My department at work now has 3 non-running Fords, each with an engine being rebuilt. '35 Ford Deluxe with a 302, a '70 Boss 302, and my little 289. It's become an ego match to see who can get his car running first.
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Old 08-14-2011, 01:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musgofasta View Post
Engine and heads are coming out and going to the machine shop. Hopefully just a hot tank, bearing and ring set, and valve job. We'll see.

No rust or carbon in the lifter valley, just a mix of oil and coolant drips when I pulled the heads. Block drain valves are STUCK, so I made quite a mess pulling the heads. PITA!

I'm past being angry at myself for messing with a perfectly good engine in April. I'm excited to work on the car again and get her on the road. Obviously I've now learned to leave it well enough alone next time.

My department at work now has 3 non-running Fords, each with an engine being rebuilt. '35 Ford Deluxe with a 302, a '70 Boss 302, and my little 289. It's become an ego match to see who can get his car running first.
I have been following this since the fall! I really feel for you!! That bring said, stuff happens, right? You've got the right attitude at least! Have fun with the rebuild, if I had my engine out, I would take the opportunity to go for that "show winning" engine compartment!
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Old 08-15-2011, 08:09 AM   #20 (permalink)
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All of the junk in the combustion chambers cleaned right up with a scotch brite and carb cleaner. Definitely not pitted rust, just on the surface.

Still going ahead with pulling the engine this week and sending it all out at once.
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Old 08-15-2011, 10:24 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Tongue um,.....why ?

Must, isn't this an engine that was supposed to have been rebuilt just recently ? If that is the case, I hope you're going to a different shop this time. I'd leave the shortblock in the car if it were mine. If you can still see the cross hatch pattern in the bores, they're probably still okay. And your rings are tougher than you might think. How about draining the coolant contaminated oil from the engine, then cleaning it up, oil the bores and just do the heads ? You'll need a decent gasket scraper, no a putty knife or spackle spatula won't do. Get a good scraper from Goodson or somebody, one of the ones that has the 90* edge blade. You need to clean the gasket residue from the decks. Your engine was obviously running with some of the gaskets leaking coolant into the ports or cylinder bores. it looks from the pictures that it ran that way for awhile.

I'd be careful where you take the engine, or just the heads, to be worked on. From your description of the 'mechanic' who couldn't get the car to run, there may be some guys with shops out near you who just don't know what they are doing. Unfortunately, that is distressingly common.

When you talk about getting a valvejob, or a 'full rebuild' on the heads, just what are you thinking of having done ? Its kinda of scary and irritating at the same time, but there are still some guys out there with a stick and a jar of paste, who believe, with all sincerity, that they can do a valve job for you. They can't. If you brought your heads to the shop I'm with, they would be disassembled, baked and blasted clean, mag'd for cracks, and if okay then you start the work. The valves are measured, and if the stems are okay, they can be reground. If they are bent or the stems too worn, you have to get new ones. Then we check out how are the guides. If they're too loose, ( usually they are ) we bore them oversize and press in a thin bronze sleeve. The bronze sleeve is then broached and/or reamed to the size needed for the valves. The intake valve seats are then cut for three angles. First the seat itself, then the top cut to get the contact lines where they need to be, then the throat cuts cut to get the seatwidth you want. . On the exhaust side, the original seats are cut out and replaced with a hardened insert. Then the insert gets cut to three angles, just like the intake had done. Don't let anyone tell you you don't need hard seats under the exhausts. You need them. Many decades ago, one of the petro companies ( amoco ? ) used to sell gasoline with something other than tetraethyl lead to protect the valves. I don't know if they still do that or not, but unleaded gasoline has been the standard stuff for so long that you may as well get your engine ready for it. Thats what every auto manufacturer is planning on you purchasing, and thats what all of the petro companies now sell. I made quite a nice living for awhile redoing valvejobs from guys who just got a 'fresh valvejob' from someone else and the engine had trouble less than 10K miles later. You need the exhaust seats. If you had the place I'm with do the aforementioned, you'd probably spend about 400~450$. The exhaust ports could be opened up abit if you want. The design is fine, but the castings frequently have lots of cast iron 'boogers' and junk in the ports. You could add thread in rocker studs if you want.

I'm not sure how your gaskets were installed, but they were leaking. Do you have, or can you borrow, an nice click style wrench ? And what kind of gaskets were on there ? I prefer and have had excellent luck with Fel-Pro Blues. But even the best gasket won't help if they aren't torqued down correctly.

It looks from here that maybe you are making this harder than it has to be. Like maybe the engine, after it was redone, has had leaking gaskets the whole time ? Who assembled the engine ? Do they have some responsibility here ? before you tear into the heads, can they be checked on a vacuum table ? I'll go out on a limb and presume that one of the cylinderhead rebuilders in your area can do this for you......and if they cannot, maybe you need to find someone better to work on them ? Keep us posted. LSG
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Old 08-15-2011, 12:48 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Thanks LSG.

I pulled and re-installed the heads. From the look of the cylinders, it definitely looks like they didn't seal. They were Fel-Pro 8548's from Autozone, just standard replacement ones. If there is a better "stupid-proof" head gasket out there, please let me know!

The heads have hardened valve seats in them already, I'm hoping for just a valve job but haven't taken them to the shop yet. I have faith in the machine shop - he's building a friend's Boss 302 shortblock and has been real honest with him on that build.

Now you have me wondering if it was the head gaskets the whole time? I may take your advise and start with the heads and oiling the bores.

One day at a time, easy does it...
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Old 08-15-2011, 12:57 PM   #23 (permalink)
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If you can feel a ridge at the top no matter how small the engine should be bored..Remember we are only talking in thousands of an inch between being good and being worn out..Just make sure it is really a ridge and not just carbon build up above where the rings run..I am not sure if its just the camera playing tricks or not but it sure looks like a lot of rust in that engine..
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Old 08-15-2011, 02:11 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Before you go and dump a bunch of money into the old original heads you should take stock of the current assembly and then list your intentions. Is the bottom end stock? Are you just trying to get this thing back together and running or do you want to build some hp? Are you going to do any port work? Intake, carb, cam? Because if you are just trying to get it back on the road and the motor is basically stock with a new intake and carb and the heads weren't in bad shape to start with then a three angle job isn't going to buy you much. It will however help the machinist with his next boat payment. And LSG is right, lapping is not a valve job. It is only a finishing step that has been more than adequate for combustion engines for over a hundred years. Is the three angle better? Yes. The real question is truly what is necessary for your situation. And IMHO there are a load of Mustangs out there with the original heads and without a three angle valve job doing just fine out on the street. Now if you want to sit in front of a Christmas tree with the transbrake on then that's a different story.
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Old 08-15-2011, 03:46 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I'm currently down to the lowest of levels - get the beast running again.
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Old 08-15-2011, 06:14 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Tongue cylinderheads, gaskets, vacuums........

Must, we have had very good luck with the Fel-Pro 'permatorque Blue' cylinderhead gaskets. They don't need a re-torque when the engine is hot, and the thin blue coatings are some kinda sealant helper stuff, and the sealer is thicker and raised up slightly around the water passages. I have not seen a Blue fail yet. Doesn't mean it can't happen, but I've been using that style when possible for as long as i can remember. IIRC you want 1011-1s. The Blues go on dry, they don't need paint or sealers. When you get to the intakes, I like the Fel-pro 'printoseal or the Victor nitroseal. I don't use the cork end gaskets but rather a fat bead of black RTV. the intake gaskets i use a very small bead of blue RTV around the water passages, and I use my fingers to coat the face of the intake with white grease if the intake is aluminum. The grease lets me wiggle the intake just abit if I must while it goes down. If your parts aren't warped badly out of flat, this should work just fine for you.

When you get to the shop, ask them to check your head's deck surface for flatness. They should have a big flat bar and some feeler gauges for this. Takes less than 2 minutes per head to check. Ask them if they can vacuum test the heads. We put the complete head deck side down on a rubber mat, then apply vacuum through the spark plug hole. The vacuum will be trying to pull the valves open. If the chambers don't each pull 22 inches of vacuum ( the limit of our machine ) we know there is a problem. Then we test each intake port and each exhaust port individually. All must be able to hold the 22 inch vacuum. If they can't, something is wrong.

We also pressure test the casting to check for cracks/leaks. Some times a casting is cracked and lets water into the ports, but the crack is some place the mag can't see it. We pressurize the castings to at least 60 psi in the water jackets. If there is a leak, you'll see bubbles, and lots of them. You want to be sure the heads are in good shape before you put them back on.

And a quick note about valve paste.......not just a finishing step, not adequate for a hundred years. Valve paste and 'lapping' is pure unadulterated nonsense. it does nothing. Repeat, nothing. Your valves, and your original soft iron seats, are harder than the paste. it is a complete waste of effort. And your stang already had a three angle valve job when it left the factory. There really isn't any other way to do it. If you have fancy machines, you can cut three angles at the same time, or cut five or seven angles, or a radius if you want, but if you don't have a seat, top, and throat cut, you don't have a valve job. I've seen guys selling 'two angle' valvejobs and wondered what step are they leaving out ? A 45* sixty or eighty thou wide seat needs three angles to create.....I do not know how you can do it with less. LSG

Last edited by LSG; 08-15-2011 at 06:17 PM. Reason: grammer
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:18 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Thanks for your insights LSG - I'm going to pick up some 1011 gaskets to try this time. The head gaskets seem to be the only common denominator for low compression across all cylinders. The engine shop finds it suspect that I could have bad rings or bad valve sealing on all cylinders. I mean I had 60-80 psi on all 4 passenger sides cylinders.

I'm thinking I either didn't have the surfaces clean enough or didn't the heads torqued correctly. I went to 70 ft-lbs, going 50-60-70 ft-lbs. I think I may have junk/oil/coolant in the bolt holes preventing a proper torque. I'm going to try another starter as well just to make sure I'm getting a good crank.
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:40 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Must- like lsg said check heads for warpage and also check block deck,has engine ever ran hot?could be the reason for gasket failure ,ps-run a bottoming tap in all the head bolt holes to clean them out
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Old 08-18-2011, 01:54 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Tongue gaskets, other stufff................

So, Must, have you had the heads checked out yet ? Got the gasket crap cleaned off from the decks ? Got the snarfy junk out of the bolt holes ? Or have you already put the whole deal back together and you're having such a good time driving, you don't have time to update the thread and tell us how're you doing ! Hope that all is well. LSG
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Old 08-18-2011, 09:33 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Heads checked out as still flat - not surprising since it ran before I took them off, and the car's never overheated. Gasket surfaces got soaked and cleaned.

New starter comes tomorrow, picked up the 1011-1 head gaskets tonight. They have another install step that I definitely did not do with my last head gasket install - after all of the head bolts are at 70 ft/lbs, torque the upper 5 bolts to 80 ft/lbs.

Install tomorrow! Hoping for some fire in the hole here soon...
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