I am in the middle of installing your conversion box in my 65 Mustang. I placed the stock manual gearbox beside the conversion box for dimensional comparison and noticed some thing mildly disturbing. It seems that the location on the sector shaft where the Pitman arm mounts is about ˝” lower than stock. I have already “bump steered” my car using the Baer Tracker kit and minimized bump steer, but the tie rod is near the bottom of the shaft on the spindle. If the box now drops the Pitman arm an additional ˝”, I may not be able to properly “bump steer” the car. Does that seem right?
Have any of you guys that have installed the box checked the bump steer before and after? Am I seeing the Pitman arm location incorrectly?
Thanks...
__________________
Keith
64 1/2 coupe built around April 30, 1964
was a 260 3-speed becoming a 5.0 5-speed.
I received the following response from Borgeson: "The sector shaft in our box is slightly lower than stock but it works just fine. We used a box that was as close to original as possible but, as you saw, it is not exact."
But, he did not answer my bump steer question. What do you guys think?
__________________
Keith
64 1/2 coupe built around April 30, 1964
was a 260 3-speed becoming a 5.0 5-speed.
__________________
"If it ain't broke, I haven't fixed it yet"
-Jon-
1967 Coupe 333ci CandyApple Red w/red int., AOD, 9" 3.50:1, Front PDB
'09 Warriors In Pink V6 w/glass roof - wife's Stang
I doubt you've "painted yourself in a corner."
Pretty much anything can be bumped.
How you're gonna do it is usually the matter of controversy.....
Wait till you have to make a pitman arm to get things to work out.
Then you've really "lived."
ex-Global West GM
1991-1994
__________________
As the drill sergeant said, "I taught you everything you know. I didn't teach you everything I know."
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
- Douglas Adams
That sucks! That means that the center link also sits at an angle (with one attachment point lower than the other). The change is in the wrong direction too, as in order to reduce bumpsteer, the outer tie rod pivot must be lowered, or the inner one must go up.
I thought this Borgeson box was finally a solution that just bolted in and caused no changes in steering geometry, but I guess that was too much asked......
Hi,
I've read and heard nothing regarding bump steer issues after doing this conversion. I haven't done this, but, I do now about bump steer.
In many cases, involving suspension and steering, you have to install the systems then "normalize" the weight load of the car before analyzing the results.
Therefore, save your concerns until all is installed with the car setting on it's own legs before becoming alarmed.
Good luck though!
__________________
Ken ..
64 1/2 Poppy Red too!, Cvt. Resto-Mod
333 Cu.in. T5z, 3:55, Dual 40 mm DCOE Webers
Performer RPM, CI cam, TFS/TWs, Tri-Ys, Discs w/Shelby Drums
Severna Park, MD
That sucks! That means that the center link also sits at an angle (with one attachment point lower than the other). The change is in the wrong direction too, as in order to reduce bumpsteer, the outer tie rod pivot must be lowered, or the inner one must go up.
Exactly. Funny - that Borgeson never mentions anywhere - huh?
__________________
Keith
64 1/2 coupe built around April 30, 1964
was a 260 3-speed becoming a 5.0 5-speed.
That sucks! That means that the center link also sits at an angle (with one attachment point lower than the other). The change is in the wrong direction too, as in order to reduce bumpsteer, the outer tie rod pivot must be lowered, or the inner one must go up.
I thought this Borgeson box was finally a solution that just bolted in and caused no changes in steering geometry, but I guess that was too much asked......
In general, you just slot the mounting portion of the idler arm bracket. Find the correct
position for the idler arm and fill in the part of the slots you no longer need.
Done a few of them in my day........
ex-Global West GM
1991-1994
__________________
As the drill sergeant said, "I taught you everything you know. I didn't teach you everything I know."
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
- Douglas Adams
In general, you just slot the mounting portion of the idler arm bracket. Find the correct
position for the idler arm and fill in the part of the slots you no longer need.
Done a few of them in my day........
ex-Global West GM
1991-1994
But that doesn't help correct bump steer when you are already at the bottom of the shaft on the spindle. It just makes them both off the same amount. The pitman arm needs to go up on the sector.
__________________
Keith
64 1/2 coupe built around April 30, 1964
was a 260 3-speed becoming a 5.0 5-speed.
Noticed that problem a year ago when I installed mine. That alignment shop called me and was concerned about the angle of the center link. After several e-mails and pictures to Borgeson, I finally got the "longer sector shaft" info.
Borgeson said it shouldn't be a problem and shouldn't affect dive-ability. The shop still didn't like it. They pulled the pitman arm and tweaked the bends in it to make the center link more level. It also took some of the bind look out of the tie rod end.
The only issue I have with the steering is a vague feel at center and little return to center. The alignment shop said they added caster, but admitted their machine was broken, and they did "the best they could". I strongly believe more caster will fix the problem. I have a '79 F250 that started steering the same way the second I switched to radial tires. I just live with it since there is no practical way to change the caster.
I'm sure it steers, but I don't consider putting the center link at an angle a non-issue. I'm not even sure if the pivots in the center link and pitman arm are ball pivots?
Instead of modifying the pitman arm, maybe a better way is to drop the idler arm by an equal amount by modifying its bracket.
I'm sure it steers, but I don't consider putting the center link at an angle a non-issue. I'm not even sure if the pivots in the center link and pitman arm are ball pivots?
Instead of modifying the pitman arm, maybe a better way is to drop the idler arm by an equal amount by modifying its bracket.
I guess you could slot the bolt holes in the bracket to move it a little lower. I know you can''t re-drill the holes is the frame to move it.
My son hit a curb in mine. Besides bending the shock tower, he ripped the idler arm most of the way out of the frame. When repairing, I found that there is a "winged" shaped piece of metal inside the frame. It locates the bolts and keeps the frame from collapsing when you tighten them.
I suggested to Borgeson that this issue would be a good reason for them to produce an additional product to sell with their kit --- a custom pitman arm that would get the angles back to correct. Sounds like a lot of us would also buy a custom idler arm mounting bracket that would do the same thing, or maybe both to take it up a little on both ends. It's been a while since I talked to them. Either it's a lot harder to make a new pitman arm than I thought, or they aren't interested in doing it.
Like I said, we fixed this type of stuff all the time.
Slotting idler arm brackets and building custom pitman arms
was like second-nature to us.
We fixed stuff that no one else could.....and did lots of it
on new cars/trucks for GM and Ford when their dealer
mechanics were mystified.
ex-Global West GM
1991-1994
__________________
As the drill sergeant said, "I taught you everything you know. I didn't teach you everything I know."
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
- Douglas Adams
Like I said, we fixed this type of stuff all the time.
Slotting idler arm brackets and building custom pitman arms
was like second-nature to us.
We fixed stuff that no one else could.....and did lots of it
on new cars/trucks for GM and Ford when their dealer
mechanics were mystified.
ex-Global West GM
1991-1994
I'm intrigued with the idea of a custom Pitman Arm. Did you use the original ends and weld new material between them or was the entire pitman arm fabricated? I had several ideas myself but just curious how you approached it? Any chance of photos
Thanks for the suggestion, but the box actually needs to go up instead of down of down and I don't believe that there is enough room for the double u-joint. Even if there were, Borgeson recommends not using a u-joint due to significant vibrations transferred through them.
I think that a custom or modified Pitman arm may be the way to go. Anyone have a source for one?
__________________
Keith
64 1/2 coupe built around April 30, 1964
was a 260 3-speed becoming a 5.0 5-speed.
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Borgeson conversion and bump steer
