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Old 11-01-2012, 03:08 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default TCI Suspension Help!!!

hey guys i need some help ive been doing a lot of research but still cant find my answer at 1st i was going to go with the stock suspension with rack pinion, brakes, and everything else, then i found this tci ifs independent suspension i just would like to know if anyone out there has this kit and i would like to know if it improves my handling, is this setup better then the stock suspension? heres the link to the tci suspension. 65 - 70 Mustang TCI Coil-over IFS Kit: Suspension Kits &amp Independent Front Suspension Kits
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:36 AM   #2 (permalink)
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hey guys i need some help ive been doing a lot of research but still cant find my answer at 1st i was going to go with the stock suspension with rack pinion, brakes, and everything else, then i found this tci ifs independent suspension i just would like to know if anyone out there has this kit and i would like to know if it improves my handling, is this setup better then the stock suspension? heres the link to the tci suspension. 65 - 70 Mustang TCI Coil-over IFS Kit: Suspension Kits &amp Independent Front Suspension Kits
I am installing this in my 67 Fastback right now, you are going to get a number of pro's & con's on it, I think for what I am doing it is going to be great for me, I have another 67 coupe that I am just going to update the perches and springs, if you go here, http://forum.mustangstofear.com/ there are a few guy's who have installed it, I do know that TCI is getting way better at helping their customers out on their systems, they have a link down below that J watches and will be more than happy to answer any questions you may have.
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Alert i wouldn't

MMike, its your car, but i wouldn't put it on. TCI claims better handling, but better than what ? The stock setup can be dramatically improved by lowing the inside pickup points on the upper arms and adding caster. The camber curve on the TCI setup cannot match it, and the TCI setup does not, repeat, does not, improve handling over what the stock setup can be made to give you.

The TCI deal DOES however give you lots of room under the hood. Not everybody wants to work around shock towers. If you're looking to swap in a big block or a mod or coyote engine, it may be just the thing.

But it is a serious deal, with some cutting and welding to install. Lot of folks can do it, but you should consider it permanent. It would be very tough to change back if you didn't like it. Think hard BEFORE you start cutting. LSG
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:06 AM   #4 (permalink)
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MMike, its your car, but i wouldn't put it on. TCI claims better handling, but better than what ? The stock setup can be dramatically improved by lowing the inside pickup points on the upper arms and adding caster. The camber curve on the TCI setup cannot match it, and the TCI setup does not, repeat, does not, improve handling over what the stock setup can be made to give you.

The TCI deal DOES however give you lots of room under the hood. Not everybody wants to work around shock towers. If you're looking to swap in a big block or a mod or coyote engine, it may be just the thing.

But it is a serious deal, with some cutting and welding to install. Lot of folks can do it, but you should consider it permanent. It would be very tough to change back if you didn't like it. Think hard BEFORE you start cutting. LSG

thanks for your advise im in the same position i know what you mean once you cut it there's no going back, its just a lot cheaper with the tci then going stock, putting rack & pinion and disc brakes, i just don't know about the handling, i guess ill probably go stock, you know any good brands for the control arms?
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:36 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Tongue What ?

MMike, how is TCI cheaper than repairing stock ? 2K$, then you have to butcher the car to get it on there, which is going to be costly if you can't do it yourself. That style of front end is a very pricey way to get rid of shock towers and reduce handling ability. You can get good replacement arms from Opentracker, Street or Track and Global West. You can get your stock steering gearbox rebuilt for much less than a R &P and it will fit right back on, and will not lose turning ability.

Look at Shaun's stage 5 kit for your car....1549$, 500$ cheaper than TCI, yes, you still need to rebuild the steering box, but that isn't going to cost 500, and the install of Shaun's stuff is going to be one heck of alot easier, and faster, and MUCH MUCH cheaper than all of the cutting & welding that the TCI kit requires.

Then the is the issue of how the car goes around corners, watch an Opentracker, S or T , or GW car run around the track, and watch a TCI car. Freeze frame it if you need to to watch the camber as the front tires go around a turn.......what you see demonstrates the camber problem the TCI design suffers from. The TCI car, like an unmodified stock suspension, rolls the top of the tire out in a turn, exactly the opposite of what you want. The OT, SorT and GW cars have the top of the tire leaning in, like you would do if you're on a motorcycle.

The TCI design just can't match the negative camber gain of a modified stock suspension. To get the TCI suspension to behave properly, you would have to lower the inside mounting points of the upper arms.....which you can't do because they're already almost on the frame rail. You also have to increase the difference between the length of the upper and lower arms.....which you can't do because the new crossmember won't allow it. If someone were to redesign the setup with much taller spindles, then you might have something. But noone seems to be interested in doing that.

Think long and hard before you break out the flame wrench, going back is tough. Do-able, but tough. LSG
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:50 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I am installing this in my 67 Fastback right now, you are going to get a number of pro's & con's on it, I think for what I am doing it is going to be great for me, I have another 67 coupe that I am just going to update the perches and springs, if you go here, Mustangs to Fear • Index page there are a few guy's who have installed it, I do know that TCI is getting way better at helping their customers out on their systems, they have a link down below that J watches and will be more than happy to answer any questions you may have.
what would be the pros and cons?
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Old 11-02-2012, 03:13 AM   #7 (permalink)
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MMike, how is TCI cheaper than repairing stock ? 2K$, then you have to butcher the car to get it on there, which is going to be costly if you can't do it yourself. That style of front end is a very pricey way to get rid of shock towers and reduce handling ability. You can get good replacement arms from Opentracker, Street or Track and Global West. You can get your stock steering gearbox rebuilt for much less than a R &P and it will fit right back on, and will not lose turning ability.

Look at Shaun's stage 5 kit for your car....1549$, 500$ cheaper than TCI, yes, you still need to rebuild the steering box, but that isn't going to cost 500, and the install of Shaun's stuff is going to be one heck of alot easier, and faster, and MUCH MUCH cheaper than all of the cutting & welding that the TCI kit requires.

Then the is the issue of how the car goes around corners, watch an Opentracker, S or T , or GW car run around the track, and watch a TCI car. Freeze frame it if you need to to watch the camber as the front tires go around a turn.......what you see demonstrates the camber problem the TCI design suffers from. The TCI car, like an unmodified stock suspension, rolls the top of the tire out in a turn, exactly the opposite of what you want. The OT, SorT and GW cars have the top of the tire leaning in, like you would do if you're on a motorcycle.

The TCI design just can't match the negative camber gain of a modified stock suspension. To get the TCI suspension to behave properly, you would have to lower the inside mounting points of the upper arms.....which you can't do because they're already almost on the frame rail. You also have to increase the difference between the length of the upper and lower arms.....which you can't do because the new crossmember won't allow it. If someone were to redesign the setup with much taller spindles, then you might have something. But noone seems to be interested in doing that.

Think long and hard before you break out the flame wrench, going back is tough. Do-able, but tough. LSG

haha true that i sure am going to be think long and hard before i make my decision, sounds like you know what youre talking about what do you think of the macpherson strut front suspension how would the handling be on that? i did some research didnt find a whole lot of answers
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:30 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Tongue front suspension

MMike, the struts can be made to do so-so job, but they can't match what the modified stock can do. One has to realize that the Mac Struts were a means to more cheaply manufacture cars, they offer no advantage over the short arm long arm suspension that your mustang came with. The stock suspension is deliberately setup from the factory with positive camber gain. This is done with the high mounting point on the inside of the upper arms. This is done so that the car will 'push' if you try to corner enthusiastically. Most drivers will then be frightened and slow down. Moving the pickup points on the inside of the upper arms can change the car dramatically, hence we have the Shelby/Arning drop on some of the early cars. It makes a big difference, but you can only go an inch before you run into ball joint trouble. With different arms, you can go down farther, and get an even better camber curve. A camber curve that Mac Pherson and TCI can't even come close to.

Is there something you don't like about the stock setup that you are looking so hard to find another option ? The stock design, with some tweaking and rethinking, can be awesome. You'll think its not even the same car.

LSG
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:10 PM   #9 (permalink)
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MMike, the struts can be made to do so-so job, but they can't match what the modified stock can do. One has to realize that the Mac Struts were a means to more cheaply manufacture cars, they offer no advantage over the short arm long arm suspension that your mustang came with. The stock suspension is deliberately setup from the factory with positive camber gain. This is done with the high mounting point on the inside of the upper arms. This is done so that the car will 'push' if you try to corner enthusiastically. Most drivers will then be frightened and slow down. Moving the pickup points on the inside of the upper arms can change the car dramatically, hence we have the Shelby/Arning drop on some of the early cars. It makes a big difference, but you can only go an inch before you run into ball joint trouble. With different arms, you can go down farther, and get an even better camber curve. A camber curve that Mac Pherson and TCI can't even come close to.

Is there something you don't like about the stock setup that you are looking so hard to find another option ? The stock design, with some tweaking and rethinking, can be awesome. You'll think its not even the same car.

LSG
sweet thanks for the info, the car is all apart rite now i just want to do it rite cause its going to be my sons cars it gna to be his daily driver so i just want the car to handle great, i was looking at the global west coilover kits for about $2500 bucks i might just go with that, but i also found tcp coilovers that bolt on the stock control arms which saves me about $1000 what would the comparison be between those two? would it be worth spending the extra $1000 and get the global west?
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
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what would be the pros and cons?
pro's, alot more room to work on the engine, updated R&P steering, con's alot of working to get it installed, you have to get a different oil pan, do not know about the drive ability factor yet, but will find out when I get mine done.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:26 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Unless I was going to drop in a 429/460 and run the 1320 I wouldn't deviate from the "stock" set-up. Would I go with rollerized mounts and/or tubular arms? Maybe if I was building a dedicated track car. Would I go with a R & P? Probably not, unless we're talking about the 429/460 again.

Box the control arms, adjustable strut rods, rollerized UCA/LCA/Lower Spring Mount, Arning Drop, Quick Steer and a fresh 16:1 box, export brace and Monte Carlo bar is pretty much all you need for a GREAT driving street car and occasional track use.
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Old 11-03-2012, 10:43 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Tongue which ones ?

MMike, which ones are you looking at ? The TCP deal that mounts to the stock arms ? Whats the point in that ? Spend a lot of money for nothing ? What are you looking to have this car do ? handle well, or are you just looking to spend a bunch of cash ? TCP also offers a coilover with some weird offset hanger deals that don't look good to me. Supposed to keep you from drilling new holes in the spring tower. But I will say I don't understand the fascination with 'coilovers' ....other than burn a hole in yer wallet, what do they do for you ? Yeah, they are more easily adjusted....but I don't adjust my springs and shocks after I've got them figured out. No need to. Why pay big $ for a feature that doesn't help you ? What condition is whats on the car now ? Do you have disk brakes ?

Slot, how do you figure that R & P is an 'update' ?! R&P steering was patented in 1895 for some kinda tricycle. Wooden sailing ships had R & P drive for the rudder in the 1600s. Not what I'd call an update. Just a lighter wallet, and lost turning ability. No thanks. LSG
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:38 AM   #13 (permalink)
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MMike, which ones are you looking at ? The TCP deal that mounts to the stock arms ? Whats the point in that ? Spend a lot of money for nothing ? What are you looking to have this car do ? handle well, or are you just looking to spend a bunch of cash ? TCP also offers a coilover with some weird offset hanger deals that don't look good to me. Supposed to keep you from drilling new holes in the spring tower. But I will say I don't understand the fascination with 'coilovers' ....other than burn a hole in yer wallet, what do they do for you ? Yeah, they are more easily adjusted....but I don't adjust my springs and shocks after I've got them figured out. No need to. Why pay big $ for a feature that doesn't help you ? What condition is whats on the car now ? Do you have disk brakes ?

Slot, how do you figure that R & P is an 'update' ?! R&P steering was patented in 1895 for some kinda tricycle. Wooden sailing ships had R & P drive for the rudder in the 1600s. Not what I'd call an update. Just a lighter wallet, and lost turning ability. No thanks. LSG


ok LSG i appreciate all the info youre helping me with, the car rite now is all apart its just the shell, its going to be my sons car which is going to be his daily driver i want the car to have great handling, yes im going to be upgrading to disc brakes
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:50 AM   #14 (permalink)
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[/Quote]

Slot, how do you figure that R & P is an 'update' ?! R&P steering was patented in 1895 for some kinda tricycle. Wooden sailing ships had R & P drive for the rudder in the 1600s. Not what I'd call an update. Just a lighter wallet, and lost turning ability. No thanks. LSG[/QUOTE]

it is nice to have more room with-out the towers, I was always blowing steering hose's, they hung low, no matter what you did with them, my opinion, the weight loss itself should help. I have a coupe that I am working on that will get the roller perches and updated stock suspension, so I may be able to see how each handles with different systems on them.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:13 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Tongue front end stuff

SlotC, I have the power steering that Ford gave the car in '69. I replaced the high pressure line in 1982, and the low pressure line in 1985. They're still on there, no troubles. Factory steering box, never rebuilt, 170K miles. All of the R&P setups I've seen so far hang LOTS lower than my factory stuff. That, with the knowledge that R&P is in no way inherently better, why spend alot to gain nothing ?! not on my car.


MMike, okay your son is going to drive this...how old is he ? What engine and trans does the car have ? How fast is he likely to go in this thing ? I should have asked about brakes before, but I have the factory front disks, and don't always think about the fact that everyone else doesn't always have them too.

If you trying to be cost effective, and your boy is really street driving this and not open tracking, the way to go is to get spindles, disks and calipers from a Granada, some years of Merc Comets, and some others. Its usually referred to as the Granada brake swap. Many years ago, when disk brake kits for a stang cost about 6-700$, I looked through the ball joint catalog to see what other fords and mercs had the same joints as our stangs.....then I went out to the salvage and started looking. I found a mid seventies four door mercury comet that noone was paying any attention to at all. I bought the front spindles and all their gear for 60$ total.

I spent the next three or four days installing this stuff on a 70 M1 351C 4V car. I used the proportioning valve from the Comet. Why Ford sold a car with that much power with drum brakes I can't imagine. But the disks were a nice addition and worked very well, stopping the car with zero issues from anything under 100 mph. If you're going to be going faster than that, you may want larger brakes. But Jr isn't going to do that, is he ? The pilot diameter on the hub is larger on the Granada disks, so you'll need to use newer wheels, or do what I did and pop them in a lathe and turn them down- 15 minutes of work, no worries.

Yeah, there are some who say that the Granada gear has more bump steer, and it does. But I really don't think there is enough to worry about. I drove the 70 with Granada spindles and brakes everyday for years, and never had or noticed any weird handling issues. And I went fast enough to learn that you want more brakes if you regularly exceed 100.....but no issues with 'bump steer'. We're talking about a kids transportation, here, not a racecar, right ? Tell us which engine & trans he has, and what you think it weighs, and I'll throw some part numbers at you.

And no, I do not work for these companies or sell any of the stuff I'm talking about, you're getting my free opinion. I make or lose nothing if you buy what I suggest or something else. Its going to be yer cash, yer car, yer choice.

LSG
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