Well, after doing some testing last week, my buddy and I concluded that my alternator was causing electrical issues to my car starting system. My car would keep trying to start with key out, but noticed smoke coming from alternator.
Today, I did final adjustments and the car was starting up fine. New volt regulator and alternator on now. After a few minutes, the car was acting up. (the car ignition was turned off but car tried to start on its own.) So in my mind, I'm thinking solenoid or ignition switch issue now. When we did some voltmeter testing with the battery ground disconnected, there is 12 volts going to the pos post of the solenoid which is normal. Without the alternator connected and the ammeter wire to the positive side of the solenoid, there is no power to the starter and ignition posts of the solenoid. BUT, when you connect either one of those wires to the power side of the solenoid, power starts going into the starter and ignition posts. Remind you this is with the battery ground disconnected so something is wrong.
Is it possible the solenoid is bad? Wiring is screwed up? Ignition switch still showing power without the key in the switch??
This all started about a month and a half ago and before that, my car was working good. So I'm kind of baffled what's going on.
__________________
Dave
2004 Nissan Titan Crew Cab
1966 Ford Mustang Original 289
Edelbrock RPM Performer Heads; bored .30 over
Weiand Stealth Intake, Holley 600 CFM Carb.
Comp Cam 268H 9.5:1 Speed Pro Pistons
Patriot Tri-Y Headers w/ 2.5" H Pipe, Flowmaster 40S
620 1" drop in front, CSRP Front Disk Brakes.
Ford 8 3.40 trac-loc rear end
GO RAIDERS!
Last edited by sdmustangrider; 11-15-2012 at 05:41 PM.
My understanding of how things work is power travels from the neg side to the positive. So if the ground wire is disconnected from the battery you would not have power to do anything. Would there be a second battery hooked up in the trunk or something? As for silnoids yes they do go bad. Most times when they go bad they won't run the starter at all. However we did use a bunch of ford sonoids in a make shift low rider to control the hydrolics and found with 48 volts power they can malfuntion in all kinds of exciting ways, including light on fire. I'd find out where the power is coming from before I do anything else. Maybe you are hooked to 2 batties and have 24 volts power instead of 12.
Trust me. I definitely don't have 2 batteries. That's pointless unless I'm doing hydros or something that requires more power.
__________________
Dave
2004 Nissan Titan Crew Cab
1966 Ford Mustang Original 289
Edelbrock RPM Performer Heads; bored .30 over
Weiand Stealth Intake, Holley 600 CFM Carb.
Comp Cam 268H 9.5:1 Speed Pro Pistons
Patriot Tri-Y Headers w/ 2.5" H Pipe, Flowmaster 40S
620 1" drop in front, CSRP Front Disk Brakes.
Ford 8 3.40 trac-loc rear end
Think it's one of those duralast I think from Autozone. What I don't get was it's been working fine for such a long time and then just started having these issues. Anyway a starter can be shorted, causing issues to the solenoid? I know it's grounded at the solenoid.
__________________
Dave
2004 Nissan Titan Crew Cab
1966 Ford Mustang Original 289
Edelbrock RPM Performer Heads; bored .30 over
Weiand Stealth Intake, Holley 600 CFM Carb.
Comp Cam 268H 9.5:1 Speed Pro Pistons
Patriot Tri-Y Headers w/ 2.5" H Pipe, Flowmaster 40S
620 1" drop in front, CSRP Front Disk Brakes.
Ford 8 3.40 trac-loc rear end
GO RAIDERS!
Last edited by sdmustangrider; 11-15-2012 at 06:07 PM.
Think it's one of those duralast I think from Autozone. What I don't get was it's been working fine for such a long time and then just started having these issues. Anyway a starter can be shorted, causing issues to the solenoid? I know it's grounded at the solenoid.
No, unless it's a newer style PMGR starter and wired as such, there is no juice to the starter except when the solenoid is engaged, whether it be by the IGN switch of defective solenoid. Disconnect the 2 small wires and probe the ends for voltage with the IGN in the ON position. The one with voltage (between 6 & 9 if you still have a resistance wire installed) goes to the "I" terminal. The other wire should have battery voltage only when the key is turned to the START position and connects to the "S" terminal. Do all tests with the battery fully connected.
The most common cause of the problem you describe is a defective solenoid. The biggest "killer" of solenoids is a starting system with high resistance, typically from bad connections or undersized cables.
Without the alternator connected and the ammeter wire to the positive side of the solenoid, there is no power to the starter and ignition posts of the solenoid. BUT, when you connect either one of those wires to the power side of the solenoid, power starts going into the starter and ignition posts.
Ok it sounds like the two wires you are talking about are: 1. ground from batt 2. alt/ammeter wire. Is that correct?
The solenoid is simply an electric magnet switch. 12V+ goes to one side via heavy cable and small wire. Apply 12v+ to the switch (solenoid) and it activates a magnet that allows power to go to the starter and ign.
You're saying you are getting 12v+ to the starter/ign when the solenoid is NOT grounded to the battery.
You can use a test light to see if 12v+ and ground are going to the solenoid.
When it's trying to start by itself, you can tap the solenoid to see if that gets it to release. Also, you can remove the trigger wire and see if that stops it.
Here's a link that shows what can happen when they get stuck.
Or, just replace the solenoid and see what happens.
It's strange that it's working without the battery ground, so I don't know what's going on there.
Notes: make sure the ground is good, I had a problem with a solenoid ground that was all rusty. Dirty connections reduce the amperage that gets thru, you can't really tell this with a voltmeter as you can still have 12v+, but that doesn't mean you are getting the needed amperage. This is why many will run a ground straight to the starter, it helps insure the starter gets full amperage.
The solenoid may have failed due to age, but they can also last a LONG time, check to see that you are getting full amperage or just clean EVERY connection and look for broken wires, sometimes old wires break inside the protective skin and you can't tell just by 'looking' at it.
Nice ideas guys! Think what I'll do is get another solenoid tomorrow and try it out. This is my 2nd new one in less than 3 days. Not sure if it's wise to replace the alternator harness to play it safe? I did try to tap it and nothing happened too. It sounds like I'm NEAR the problem, just trying to put my finger on it is where I'm having the issue. Think what I'll do too is take the solenoid off and sandpaper it's mounting location to get better ground. I read that a few days ago in Mustang Monthly about doing that to get good grounding.
__________________
Dave
2004 Nissan Titan Crew Cab
1966 Ford Mustang Original 289
Edelbrock RPM Performer Heads; bored .30 over
Weiand Stealth Intake, Holley 600 CFM Carb.
Comp Cam 268H 9.5:1 Speed Pro Pistons
Patriot Tri-Y Headers w/ 2.5" H Pipe, Flowmaster 40S
620 1" drop in front, CSRP Front Disk Brakes.
Ford 8 3.40 trac-loc rear end
So the positive side of the battery goes to the solnoid, The neg. side goes to the block. The only wires that go to the starter are pos wires, the starter is grounded, neg side to the block. When the solnoid is powered up it sends pos. power throw the large wire on the optosite side of the solnoid as the battery power is connected to. The contact points in the ignition switch could be wore out, check this by checking checking for power at the small wire of the solnoid. Or when it goes to start on it's own pull this wire off and see if it stops. Anyway you look at it if the neg battery wire is disconnected there can be no power anywhere.
Nice ideas guys! Think what I'll do is get another solenoid tomorrow and try it out. This is my 2nd new one in less than 3 days.
Ok, this is news to me. I'm putting my money one amperage leak! Don't just look at ONE ground point.
A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link... check ALL grounds/connections/wires. Don't forget internal breakage of wires.
The fact that you tapped the solenoid and it didn't change is a clue, but you need to disconnect the 'trigger' wire, then see if it stops, then tap it. Easy test, shows the solenoid 'welded' itself to the point it's sticking.
Note: you can run a ground straight from the battery to the mounting bolts of the solenoid, just like many do with the starter.
Another issue is that the starter could be drawing more than the solenoid is giving, check the starter for proper connections and maybe ground straight to the starter, I do that with my high-torque FE starter on my Ford truck.
In other words, you could have several problems, fixing one might indicate a resolved problem, that'll come back later.
Ill check the Benedix too. I think I forgot to add that when the power wire from battery is on pos post of solenoid without ground wire connected to battery, there's power to solenoid but nothing comes out of ignition and starter meaning its functioning properly and only works when car is turned on. But here's the funny thing. With the alternator wire from power part of solenoid to alternator are connected, there is power going to the starter and ignition part of solenoid. With the alternator power wire disconnected, there's no power to the ignition and starter. Right now I'm going to switch out and see what happens.
__________________
Dave
2004 Nissan Titan Crew Cab
1966 Ford Mustang Original 289
Edelbrock RPM Performer Heads; bored .30 over
Weiand Stealth Intake, Holley 600 CFM Carb.
Comp Cam 268H 9.5:1 Speed Pro Pistons
Patriot Tri-Y Headers w/ 2.5" H Pipe, Flowmaster 40S
620 1" drop in front, CSRP Front Disk Brakes.
Ford 8 3.40 trac-loc rear end
Well, after doing some testing last week, my buddy and I concluded that my alternator was causing electrical issues to my car starting system. My car would keep trying to start with key out, but noticed smoke coming from alternator.
Today, I did final adjustments and the car was starting up fine. New volt regulator and alternator on now. After a few minutes, the car was acting up. (the car ignition was turned off but car tried to start on its own.) So in my mind, I'm thinking solenoid or ignition switch issue now. When we did some voltmeter testing with the battery ground disconnected, there is 12 volts going to the pos post of the solenoid which is normal. Without the alternator connected and the ammeter wire to the positive side of the solenoid, there is no power to the starter and ignition posts of the solenoid. BUT, when you connect either one of those wires to the power side of the solenoid, power starts going into the starter and ignition posts. Remind you this is with the battery ground disconnected so something is wrong.
Is it possible the solenoid is bad? Wiring is screwed up? Ignition switch still showing power without the key in the switch??
This all started about a month and a half ago and before that, my car was working good. So I'm kind of baffled what's going on.
Why dont you do this: instead of disconnecting the alternator or ammeter wire...disconnect the starter from the solenoid and go from there ( with the negative connected) You cant properly diagnose the problem the way you are doing it.
If the starter is disconnected you can tell if the solenoid is turning on by itself or not. That would give you a good starting point of what to chase.
Never kill the system, kill the problem.
Ok it sounds like the two wires you are talking about are: 1. ground from batt 2. alt/ammeter wire. Is that correct?
The solenoid is simply an electric magnet switch. 12V+ goes to one side via heavy cable and small wire. Apply 12v+ to the switch (solenoid) and it activates a magnet that allows power to go to the starter and ign.
You're saying you are getting 12v+ to the starter/ign when the solenoid is NOT grounded to the battery.
You can use a test light to see if 12v+ and ground are going to the solenoid.
When it's trying to start by itself, you can tap the solenoid to see if that gets it to release. Also, you can remove the trigger wire and see if that stops it.
Here's a link that shows what can happen when they get stuck.
Or, just replace the solenoid and see what happens.
It's strange that it's working without the battery ground, so I don't know what's going on there.
Notes: make sure the ground is good, I had a problem with a solenoid ground that was all rusty. Dirty connections reduce the amperage that gets thru, you can't really tell this with a voltmeter as you can still have 12v+, but that doesn't mean you are getting the needed amperage. This is why many will run a ground straight to the starter, it helps insure the starter gets full amperage.
The solenoid may have failed due to age, but they can also last a LONG time, check to see that you are getting full amperage or just clean EVERY connection and look for broken wires, sometimes old wires break inside the protective skin and you can't tell just by 'looking' at it.
That hyperlink you just posted is absolutely true. I just smoked my wire harness for trying to start the car on a weak battery. THat sucks.
Why dont you do this: instead of disconnecting the alternator or ammeter wire...disconnect the starter from the solenoid and go from there ( with the negative connected) You cant properly diagnose the problem the way you are doing it.
If the starter is disconnected you can tell if the solenoid is turning on by itself or not. That would give you a good starting point of what to chase.
Never kill the system, kill the problem.
Hmm. I'll give it a try. I KNOW I"m near the problem. Just trying to put my inger on it. Thanks Ivan.
__________________
Dave
2004 Nissan Titan Crew Cab
1966 Ford Mustang Original 289
Edelbrock RPM Performer Heads; bored .30 over
Weiand Stealth Intake, Holley 600 CFM Carb.
Comp Cam 268H 9.5:1 Speed Pro Pistons
Patriot Tri-Y Headers w/ 2.5" H Pipe, Flowmaster 40S
620 1" drop in front, CSRP Front Disk Brakes.
Ford 8 3.40 trac-loc rear end
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Electrical issues drives me nuts.
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