I agree ethically it is wrong unless it is disclosed to all involved which does not happen. But the law has holes in it. I hear in alabama you can get a title to almost anything with 4 wheels. That is scary to me. Problem is that car could be taken to any state and titled without a salvage title. In Michigan, when a car is salvages, the vin is noted and no way to get rid of salvage on it. We have pretty good law here b/c of auto companies. But one nice thing that comes out of this is that we may see more classics even if they are repops lol. I think they should just revert to the 60's
So a guy has a totaled 65 "T" code coupe. His buddy has a "C" code coupe without a title and sells the "C" code to the guy who has the wrecked "T" code. He switches the vins from the "T" code to the "C" code. And lets say this was done in the late 70's.
This is the same action, but I don't think there would be very many people who would have an issue with this?
The ad is selling the VIN and title for $2,500. Common sense that the only purpose he is thinking of is for its use in making an S code car. Oh yeah, I bet someone buys it. Someone unscrupulous. A smart buyer could figure it out - chances are the date codes all over the re-badged car won't jive with the fake VIN. We here are pretty good at figuring that stuff out, but not everyone else.
I have a friend who owns a company that does restorations. We talked about this some time ago. He has done a couple of Dynacorn restorations. In both cases he could have done the restoration using NOS parts. However, the amount of time and labor it would have cost to do the restoration using NOS parts was a factor of 10 times more then using the Dynacorn shell. Since the finished project was a correctly restored car and no attempt was made to turn the car into something it wasn't this was just as legal as a restoration using NOS parts. Both of which are legal.
I have a friend who owns a company that does restorations. We talked about this some time ago. He has done a couple of Dynacorn restorations. In both cases he could have done the restoration using NOS parts. However, the amount of time and labor it would have cost to do the restoration using NOS parts was a factor of 10 times more then using the Dynacorn shell. Since the finished project was a correctly restored car and no attempt was made to turn the car into something it wasn't this was just as legal as a restoration using NOS parts. Both of which are legal.
I think you misused the term NOS, which means new old stock. It would be impossible to find enough NOS parts to build a car. Unless you bought a whole car.
I have a car that needed the floor pan, dash, rockers, firewall and A pillars. It was cheaper for me to buy an old shell of a car than to buy the parts new. Plus, I knew the parts would fit because they were OEM. It could be viewed that the vins were swapped because the subframe was replaced. However, all the parts but the ones mentioned are from the original car.
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Life is what you make of it.
17" MB Old School wheels from discount tire (a lot of people ask)
I fully understand the problem, and I want to do what is "right". I purchased a 67 fastback. It was a real mess. I have the VIN, it is in a bag in my office. By weight the car will probably be 90+% new. What do I do? Attach the old VIN? Get a new custom VIN? I just do not know what is the right thing to do. The old car rusted away, or the corroded parts are stored in the garage and basement. Should the original VIN just die I kind of want to keep the old VIN attached to the spirit of the original car, but is that "spirit" still there?
I fully understand the problem, and I want to do what is "right". I purchased a 67 fastback. It was a real mess. I have the VIN, it is in a bag in my office. By weight the car will probably be 90+% new. What do I do? Attach the old VIN? Get a new custom VIN? I just do not know what is the right thing to do. The old car rusted away, or the corroded parts are stored in the garage and basement. Should the original VIN just die I kind of want to keep the old VIN attached to the spirit of the original car, but is that "spirit" still there?
Look at it this way. When Ford stamped the VIN on a car they built, they gave it a legal identity. When that car rusts to the point of no return and is cut up for scrap, it dies along with its legal identity. "Transplanting" the VIN from that now extinct car to a newly built Dynacorn car can serve no legitimate purpose. That resurrected car is not the original car that Ford built. That resurrected car is not an original anything. It is a replica of an original. Putting the original VIN on a replica is dishonest. I can think of only one reason to represent the Dynacorn car as something more than it really is, and that is to dishonestly inflate the asking price to that of the original. If there is no intent to defraud, then get the DMV issued VIN and enjoy your replica for what it is.
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*67 Vintage Burgundy 390GTA with most of the bells and whistles*
I really believe it is only illegal to remove for fraudulent intents. If you are up front about what you have done with a buyer, I dont think it is illegal.
It doesn't matter. Intent has nothing to do with it. It's simply illegal to move a VIN, no matter what the circumstance.
In CT, it's illegal to remove the VIN, and put it right back on the same car. Think about it: how does the DMV know at that point whether the car in question was stolen? Once the VIn comes off, it can't be identified.
John
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now sandblasted and DP40'd since this pic was taken.
a two legged hole shot, even with a munged up carb and snow tires...
By the way, I did not get a Dynacorn, the roof and transmission tunnel, most of the door jambs and some of the sills are original. So are the seat frames, and all internal metal you can see (except the doors). I purchased a car that once was a driving 1967 mustang, but a piece at a time, it is going away. I feel I have a "real" mustang, but I can see how others may feel different.
Like Slim said, criminals are not supposed to own guns. Criminals are criminals regardless of what you or I think about what they are doing. BE SMART, EDUCATE YOURESELF, ASK FOR ADVISE, AND DON'T BLAME YOUR IGNORANCE ON SOMEONE ELSE.
I strongly disagree with this this is narrow minded. I have been convicted of manslaughter 7 years ago. I have paid my dues, and will pay for the rest of my life. Have I been convicted? Yes,,am I a criminal? no. I have seen the underworld and I can tell you first hand, some people have made mistakes willingly and unwillingly and paid for it one way or another, big time. Are they evil demons trying to commit some crime? no they are not. I can own a gun by the way, but choose not to.
I fully understand the problem, and I want to do what is "right". I purchased a 67 fastback. It was a real mess. I have the VIN, it is in a bag in my office. By weight the car will probably be 90+% new. What do I do? Attach the old VIN? Get a new custom VIN? I just do not know what is the right thing to do. The old car rusted away, or the corroded parts are stored in the garage and basement. Should the original VIN just die I kind of want to keep the old VIN attached to the spirit of the original car, but is that "spirit" still there?
My 67 vert came to me with timber replacing frame rails, bogged and painted to look like real steel, rags, toilet rolls cardboard were thrust into the frame rails to hold the buckets full of Bondo plastered into them, the floor was even bogged and my hammer went through that. I might as well have jacked up the Vin numbers and rolled another car in but I did not. I lost one inner fender but cut out the Vin number before disposing of the rest of that battery apron/inner fender.
Sometimes the Vin numbers may not have much more of the original car left to accompany them on a restoration, but who's to say a restoration is not just a series of repairs caught up on after the car was driven over salted roads for 45 years?
As far as the blessed title goes, I told your Police the Bill of sale was forged and the last owner appearing on my title advised he was not the one who sold me the car and I virtually got told to go F**k myself.
One issue that seems to be common here is 'moving' or 'reusing' a vin. Someone could say that "I just replaced the doors, shell, fenders, glass,..." and the only thing from the 'original' car is the steering wheel and one wing window.
Some may have a problem with this. But, _IF_ the 'original' car (old shell, etc...) is gone, then where is the problem.
Well, one problem is in how we view 'value' of a car. We value the 'Numbers Matching' engine vs the same engine from another car. We also value 'Original sheet metal' cars and clear titles.
Example: my 66 coupe has a salvage title from before I owned it. It has damage in the trunk that was clearly hit in the rear. The car wasn't mine at the time, and has been nicely repaired (not perfect). Some say the value is 1/2, because someone was paid off from the ins co, yet the car is very functional.
The point is that we give value to certain things about a car. He's selling a vin/title from a 'mustang that WAS worth more that a standard mustang' I don't know the retail value of a 69 S code, but clearly someone could use this to 'make a buck' off someone.
I could convert my coupe over to a fastback or vert, it would probably DOUBLE the retail value.
I'm getting ready to convert mine from a 6 to a 5.0/AOD, this adds some retail value to it, but at the same time, I'm NOT changing the VIN! The 6 cyl shell is the same as the V8 shell (except the vin) So what's the difference? Buyers give value to some things, they give value to an original V8 car over a converted V8 car (maybe not very much).
That's where the problem could be, someone COULD try to raise the value of a car, by making it appear to be an original 'S' code car.
Given the price of the VIN ($2500), why would anyone pay that kind of money without adding at least that and more to the target car?
We buy 'OEM' or 'NOS' parts at a higher price to make/keep the value of a car (or personal desire).
I have an 66 Chevelle SS, and it's vin is different from the Malibu, the value difference can be 10K+ and it's common for some to fake a true SS, including buying build sheets, etc...
The selling of the VIN, might be legal, but the price and likely use looks shady/illegal.
Why else would anyone pay $2,500 for a vin? They most likely woud do something that adds MORE than $2,500 to a car, otherwise it has no real value close to $2,500.
It is not Illegal to change the vin to new car. It is Illegal to sell such car and not let the buyer be aware of such a change.
Ah, don't know where you're getting your info. But that is very illegal.
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1970 Fastback (to be finished outside as a Boss 302 clone)
393 Windsor AFR 205 heads with 11.5:1 compression
Tremec TKO 5 Speed
Link to my Hub Garage and blog about my car http://www.hubgarage.com/mygarage/maxum96
I really believe it is only illegal to remove for fraudulent intents. If you are up front about what you have done with a buyer, I dont think it is illegal. If you change the vin to hide a stolen car, it is illegal. If you have 2 cars and make one out of them, it is not. But you have to disclose to the buyer what you have done otherwise you are commiting fraud on the buyer. That is why you can use the dynacom shell. It is not a stolen car. But putting a vin on a dynacom shell can be illegal if you sell it to a buyer and dont disclose that the vin has been moved. It would be fraud on the buyer. Car is not actually against the law.
Once again, I don't know where info comes from, but it's incorrect.
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1970 Fastback (to be finished outside as a Boss 302 clone)
393 Windsor AFR 205 heads with 11.5:1 compression
Tremec TKO 5 Speed
Link to my Hub Garage and blog about my car http://www.hubgarage.com/mygarage/maxum96
OK, This has me thinking, I have to replace my L/F apron where the vin # is, I was going to cut along the bottom edge of the top of the apron, straighten the top part and weld on the replacement part of the apron, leaving the original part of the apron where the vin # intact, is this legal to do?
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65 factory GT A code 4 speed
I kind of want to keep the old VIN attached to the spirit of the original car, but is that "spirit" still there?
