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Old 06-19-2014, 03:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Pinion angle help 70 mach

Guys,
I will have my d-shaft out on monday and one of the items i want to check while it's out is trans output shaft and pinion angle.Would someone have an idiot proof way to do it .I have sears digital angle finder but need someone to walk me through the process .I thank the person posted some literature in another post about my vibration but was wondering if someone has a simple hands on version.
Is it as simple and putting the angle finder flat on the top of the yoke on the diff and record that number and samething with the slip yoke on tranny and then one of the angle of the shaft it self and then use a formula ?
Should my pinion be up or down with a narrow 57 ford diff and mild street engine for power.I would like to know where i stand to take that off the table as possible vibe cause.
Thanks
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Old 06-19-2014, 05:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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You are looking for the difference in angle between the (1) tranny versus driveshaft and (2) pinion versus driveshaft. This method works even if the car is not level. You are going to use the u-joint angles front and rear. Rotate the driveshaft so that one of the u-joints on the tranny yoke is pointed straight down. Put a socket flat on the u-joint cap and measure the angle using by putting the angle finder on the socket. Rotate the driveshaft 90 degrees so that the driveshaft u-joint cap is pointing straight down. Again use a socket to measure that angle. Do the same in the rear. You must NOT change the height of the car at any time. If you have trouble getting under it then put blocks under all four wheels until you can. This method requires you to remove the u-joint clips so that you can get the socket flat on the u-joint face.

Once you have all four angles you can use them to see all the differences including the pinion versus the yoke. Again, it does not matter if the car is level - you are just looking for the differences.
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Old 06-19-2014, 08:23 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I follow you instructions without a problem.I varied from them a bit and you can give me heck if you have to I figured it was going to be challenge to get the snap rings off while the shaft was in and i need the car saturday so i used the outsides of all the yokes but the one with the u clamps .I used the socket trick there.If the outside of the yokes are tapered and not on the same plane as the caps i will try and get the clips out another time and measure.

Here is what i got for angles.

Tranny slip yoke 2.6 facing down
D shaft at slip youke 3.0 facing up
Pinion 2.0 facing up
D shaft at pinion 3.3 facing down

What is this telling me ?
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Old 06-19-2014, 11:30 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yeah, I'm looking right at the up pinion angle of 2 degrees. Most are
zero or down 1-2 degrees. (and the pinion angle has a tendency to
climb even farther UP under acceleration)
The trans case/slip yoke I'm thinking should be closer to zero, if not
slightly up.
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Old 06-20-2014, 09:11 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I spent hours last night trying to get my head around the angles and it's pretty well debated.Some say pinion down a few deg and some say ford sets them up as far as 5* pos. Some say it matters not as long as the angles are close to each other.
I never mentioned the car had traction bars on it which i have removed and now has wheel hop but i want the classic non traction bar look.
I have no fibration felt usnder escelleration but have one at 65-72 which i am working on in another thread.
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Old 06-20-2014, 11:09 AM   #6 (permalink)
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5 degrees difference between the driveshaft and tranny is not good. Same for pinion. You are putting a lot of strain on your u-joints. Should not exceed 3 degrees. Shim the back of the tranny up and get some wedges for the rear axle to drop the pinion a bit.
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Old 06-20-2014, 11:50 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Often if you have changed the transmission or rear setup you will have to made adjustments. On my 70 Mach 1, I put in a TKO-600, and also change the rear suspension (drag race).

I tweaked my driveline by shifting the trans up a total of 5/8" and added a 2 degree wedge under the axle perch. Now the trans and pinion are less than a degree difference and driveshaft is about 1 deg at both ends.

Also here is a link to an article on drive line angles
Drive Shaft Harmonics


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Old 06-20-2014, 12:53 PM   #8 (permalink)
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So guys do I add my two angles together to get my angle.In other words is my angle at the yoke 5.6 and at the pinion 5.3 and if this is correct then it is too excessive ?

I was thinking the pinion angle for example would be 3.3 -2.0 =1.3* angle but i have no idea what i am doing.
I took my measurements off the surface parallel with the caps or what you I would call the boss or cap housing.The output shaft/yoke was facing down the tranny end of the d-shaft facing up .The pinion was facing up and the d-shaft at the pinion was facing down.If i measured correctly and it's still out this would explain why i had a u joint fail quickly.I had axle stand under the axle and the front tires on 5.5" blocks

If i raise the tranny and drop the pinion is that not going to increase my angles ? It will definitly increase the angle of the drive shaft when viewed from the side.
Sorry for the questions just trying to figure it out and learn.

App01 i read that article and where it says to point the pinion up 1-3* and figured i was right in there .
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Old 06-20-2014, 01:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Is there a big difference in height between the trans tailshaft and the
center of the pinion? If so, I can see how your angles could get steeper.
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Old 06-20-2014, 02:06 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I think there might be a height difference... the tranny is a top loader and the diff is 57 ford and the 3rd member is a trac loc i beleive.
If i raise my tranny does not the angle increase and put more stress on that u joint closest to the tranny.Just makes no sense that if i raise the tail and the angle increases then that will be better....Just don't get it.
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Old 06-20-2014, 03:01 PM   #11 (permalink)
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As I already mentioned, the angles will get steeper.... I originally was assuming that the tail shaft and pinion were roughly at the same height. Why aren't they?
That's the new question.
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Old 06-20-2014, 03:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Tmunn, you will have to experiment some with the angles. Personally I always have to create a diagram for myself so I can keep track of the angles. You are correct about raising the trans.

The starting point is to have the transmission tail shaft and pinion angles parallel to each other. Be very careful when placing the level finder. A few tips:

Places to measure for best results (my opinion)
1. If the driveshaft is installed, I find it easiest to find a socket that is about the size of the U-joint end cap and then put the socket on the cap and then level finder on that. I do that at both the trans end as well as at the diff end.
2. If you happen to have yokes (aftermarket ones) that have a a milled surface that is milled parallel to the U-joint ends, then you can use that flat surface.

There are other surfaces, but I find these the easiest.
3. When you put the level finder as in 1,2 above, it is important that when you make the measurements that you have the level finder perpendicular to the angle you are measuring. For example, if you use the U-joint cap with a socket, that cap must be straight down, and not rotated clockwise or ccw otherwise that will change the angle ever so slightly.
4. I have found it easiest to measure the trans and pinion angles to see if they are parallel with the driveshaft installed since I can use the U-joint caps.
5. I use a digital angel finder with a magnetic base which I think makes it easier.

Goal:
1. Angle of trans tail shaft and pinion yoke should be parallel= 0 degree difference +- some small tolerance, even though they are on different planes (Trans is higher than pinion). Off hand I do not recall what the spec is for that tolerance.
2. Then you can start to focus on the working angles of the U-joints and driveshaft.

There are different ways to do the same things, but this is just a few thoughts on how I have done it.

In my case on my 70, the reason I had to shim the transmission tail and then use a 2 degree shim on the spring perch was that I has a number of aftermarket parts and had to compensate for that.

Here is an FAQ from Dennys Driveshaft
>>>>>>>>>>
How much driveline angle is right for my application?

Thats a loaded question. The best answer is....the least amount of driveline or u-joint angle is the best amount of angle. Try to achieve the least amount of u-joint angle but don't make it less than 1 degree. A little known fact about u-joints is that they require about 1 degree of operating angle to get the needle bearings rotating. If they do not rotate they will fail. Too much angle will also cause them to fail. The type of rear suspension also plays a big part in setting the angles as well as the engine/transmission angle. Leaf spring cars have a need for more downward pinion angle due to spring wrap-up while coil spring cars control the situation better. Hard acceleration as in the case of a drag race car requires a different setting than a street driven car. Traction bars, ladder bars, 4 links, independent rears all have special needs and requirements.
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Old 06-20-2014, 04:55 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Ok, thanks guys for your patience.I measured the distance from the floor to the tail shaft as close as i could get and it's about 18".I did the same thing from the floor to the center of the pinion and get about 14.5" so the center of the tail of the tranny is aprox 3.5"higher than the center of the pinion.I hav no idea why.
I stopped buy a shop that does 4x4 work and picked up some shims in case you guys think i need them.All they had was 2-3/8 that were 2.5* and some 2.5" wide that were 4* so i grabbed the 2.5* for now and if they do not wor out I can return them.I was thinking the 2.5 shims would get me aprox .5 neg at the pinion.
I was talking to the tech and he basically told me to try and get the face of the pinion to face the shaft on the tranny which I believe is what app01 is saying when he means the shaft and pinion should be parallel if i understood correctly?
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Old 06-20-2014, 08:25 PM   #14 (permalink)
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68rcode.I took this qoute from something you posted where another person was inquiring.
"The nose should be down for a drag car (think lots of power and slicks) but up for a street car. Ideally the pinion "up" angle should match the tranny "down" angle and there should be at least 1 degree difference between the pinon and the tranny relative to the driveshaft. Any more than 3-4 degrees up might cause problems - it varies from car to car."
If this is the case then am I not close to this with pinion up 2* and tranny down .
2.6*
I am getting more confused.
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Old 06-20-2014, 09:44 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmunn View Post
Ok, thanks guys for your patience.I measured the distance from the floor to the tail shaft as close as i could get and it's about 18".I did the same thing from the floor to the center of the pinion and get about 14.5" so the center of the tail of the tranny is aprox 3.5"higher than the center of the pinion.I hav no idea why.
I stopped buy a shop that does 4x4 work and picked up some shims in case you guys think i need them.All they had was 2-3/8 that were 2.5* and some 2.5" wide that were 4* so i grabbed the 2.5* for now and if they do not wor out I can return them.I was thinking the 2.5 shims would get me aprox .5 neg at the pinion.
I was talking to the tech and he basically told me to try and get the face of the pinion to face the shaft on the tranny which I believe is what app01 is saying when he means the shaft and pinion should be parallel if i understood correctly?
18" to the floor (behind the shifter)? And this is from the center line of the slip yoke?
Seems to be a huge distance. I think it's about 7" on a 65/66.
The pinion and slip yoke in a Mustang should be somewhere near the same level. Doesn't sound like that's your situation. Maybe someone with a 69/70 will Chime in.
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