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"A" code 1966 fastback worth restoring or ??

16K views 177 replies 42 participants last post by  EvilRed 
#1 · (Edited)
So I have this old Mustang chassis that I put out to pasture over 10 years ago. One of those "I'll get to it someday" projects.

All this time I did not have a VIN for the car (the VIN was cut out by the PO and I bought the car as a top-donor). The idea to use the top and convert a coupe into a fastback. Recently I decided i did not want to mess with a coupe to fastback conversion and figured I'd unload the car on eBay.

Me and a buddy were out taking pics and getting the car ready for eBay. We took the fender off the driver's side and lo and behold! There was a nice clean VIN stamped into the fender apron a bit further back toward the windshield (that I did not know about, and the PO probably didn't know about either). So, I have a VIN, which means I can get a title for the car (bonded for 5 years, then converts to a standard title).

I originally thought I had no VIN for the car, since it was cut out of the driver's side (and the passenger side fender apron is so rust pitted that the VIN is indistinguishable). So the car was not a candidate for restoration (just a donor). But now since I have a VIN I'm thinking about making this car my next project (or at least save it for a future project). I'm finishing up a restoration of another 1965 fastback, and I have about enough leftover and duplicate interior and fastback-specific parts to complete this one too.

What I know about this car:
"A" code VIN
Factory 4 speed
Factory dual exhaust
Factory disc brakes
Factory GT sway bar
Grey exterior
Red and white interior (white vinyl top, red windlace)
Not a pony interior
No power steering
No A/C
Not a radio delete
Not a heater delete

Vin number is 6F09A106862

Cons:
Rusty!
Front right damage

Pros:
A-Code fastback
Already have a lot the parts to reassemble

I understand it will cost $$ and time to do this. Like I said, I'm finishing up up on another fastback restoration now. I'm not a professional welder, but I have done my share of "shade tree" welding with my trusty mig welder.

Here are some pics:

Looks like a fastback! Not too shabby from this angle.


The factory dual exhaust reinforcement plates.


Uncut dash, floors are rusted through.


Lots of surface rust, and rust-through here and there. But I've seen a lot worse.


Another shot of the interior.


Trunk area. Rear section of the frame rail on the driver's side is toast. I expect the worst for the rest.


The elusive VIN! Early 1966 production car.


Looks like a good quarter from this angle.


Little fender-bender on the front passenger side. You can see where the VIN was cut out of the driver's side fender apron.


Not too bad engine compartment.


Another shot of the missing VIN.


A pillars, B pillars and roof rail pinch welds on both sides are good (rust free) and front and rear window opening pinch welds are rust-free.



So the question is: would you keep the car, maybe cover it or roll it into a barn to prevent any further decay, or unload it on eBay and let someone else be the happy owner of a 1966 A code Mustang 2+2?
 
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#2 ·
The big question is: what did the PO do with the VIN #?

The PO could have transplanted that VIN to a different car... So in effect there could be two cars with that VIN in existence, The body you have now and another fastback or coupe turned-into-fastback.
Before you get any happy thoughts I would get the ball rolling on having than VIN looked up to see if its clean.
 
#4 ·
Yeah, I thought about that. But if someone else used the VIN from my car, wouldn't they have to relinquish the VIN to me, since I have the actual car the VIN belongs to?

Hmmm...that does make me think...if the PO sold the VIN and transferred the title to a new owner, then technically the guy who has the title for the cut VIN actually has the title to the car I have out on the farm. Hmmm...I think I will call the DMV tomorrow and see of that VIN is registered in Texas.
 
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#8 ·
True, and metal work is not my strong point. I have done some welding, and replaced floor pans and stuff, but never replaces any frame rails, quarter panels, fender aprons, radiator support, etc. Seems like the car will need a lot of metal work. I guess it will be the step in the evolution of my restoration skills.
 
#10 ·
Sweet! it has the factory duals! To be honest, I didn't even know about the factory reinforcement plates until I was adding dual exhaust to my 1965 C code fastback. Then when I was out looking at the 1966 rotting away in the field, I was those reinforcement plates and recognized them tight away. Nice...now...what is the guy who cut the VIN and (probably) has the title to the VIN has already converted another car into this VIN and it is registered with the DMV?

Plus, if someone has a title with this VIN on it, who actually owns this car?

Darn! Now I want to build it for sure, but not is someone else can lay claim to it.
 
#14 ·
But I don't have the title to the car. I suspect the PO sold the VIN and the title to some other guy before he sold the chassis to me.

BTW...the guy I bought the car from was in the restoration business. He restored Mustangs and Thunderbirds. This was at least 10, maybe 15 years ago. I'll have to dig around for the paperwork from that sale.
 
#15 ·
This is a very interesting circumstance you have. The fact that the title and vin may well be "attached" to some other car body now, and that car could be virtually anywhere, wow. If it is on another car, I wonder if the current owner knows what they really have/bought?
Keep us posted on what you find out!
 
#21 ·
I don't think the OP would have a claim to the VIN. He bought it as a parts car to cut off the roof structure. So in effect he bought a pile of metal not a car. Shame on the seller for not destroying all the VIN stampings on the car, but clearly the intent was there as they cut off the VIN from the engine bay before selling.

If nothing else, the OP would be on unstable moral ground if he found the VIN to be in use on another car and fought to have it "returned" to him.

OP bought a pile of parts being sold as a pile of parts. The seller made a good faith effort to guarantee that it was not able to be sold as a car ever again and simply didn't have the knowledge to complete that action.

This is all a mute point if, after running a VIN check, the VIN comes back clean. But if it comes back as in use, then OP should buy another VIN parts car or just let it be.
 
#23 ·
I see four possible reasons for this:

1) The seller knew the car was stolen and wanted to get rid of the left over body he didn't want to get caught with. Odds about 250 / 1

2) seller is up for the good citizen of the year and didn't want the "rust bucket" on the rode so sent the VIN and title in to the DMV listed as destroyed. Odds 10,000,000,000 to 1

3) Sold the title and VIN to someone else to build a "fake" "A" code fastback out of a "T" code or coupe conversion. Odds 2/1

4) someone the seller knew had a stolen "A" Code Fastback that could not be registered on the stolen VIN so this was used to "clean" the title. Odds 10 / 1

I would get the VIN run and turn the information over to law enforcement to get it sorted out. Any way you cut it (other than option 2) is not only criminal but put all of as at risk. If it was my stolen car, or I got hooked into buying the "T" / "A" for original price I would be really PI$$ed. If we don't police our own nobody will. Let's keep it honest and above board. Get the COP's involved. Just my .02 cents worth! Mel
 
#24 · (Edited)
If that VIN is on another car, then the seller and/or owner of that other car has committed a felony. The OP possesses the actual car that carried that VIN, and it would be up to the possessor of the other car to prove it wasn't a re-VIN'ed stolen car, and good luck with that.

All the OP needs to worry about is whether the VIN on his actual chassis is on the hot sheet. If that's a clean VIN, he's home free. Best be sure about that, though, because if he runs the VIN after restoration, and it was once stolen, the legit owner gets the car, even if it was stolen 35 years ago.

To the OP: In my monitor, the colors appear to be Silver Frost with a dark red Deluxe "pony" interior. These colors, combined with the fact that it's a real factory GT, put it in this category of rarity: Extreme.

As for restorable, the car is stripped bare, but condition-wise, I see cars worse than that get restored all the time. The collision damage, and rust damage, is slight. The dash isn't even cut for an aftermarket radio.

How rare is that? I could not find a photo of a SF/red 66 FB. This is as close as I could get. Notice that (correctly) a silver car with a red interior get a red stripe-
 

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#27 · (Edited)
To the OP: In my monitor, the colors appear to be Silver Frost with a dark red Deluxe "pony" interior. These colors, combined with the fact that it's a real factory GT, put it in this category of rarity: Extreme.
That's awesome! As far as the Pony Interior goes, shouldn't there be some provision in the A-pillar to accommodate the wires for the courtesy lights in the doors? I looked but didn't see a hole in the A-pillar for the wires to pass from under dash to the doors.

Here's a shot of the A-pillar


And yes, it is a gray exterior. It also had some Lemans-style stripes that were on the deck lid. The deck lid was really rusty so I took it off, but still have it.
 
#33 ·
Put a finger into the rear frame rail hole where the rear exhaust hangers bolt through and check to see if the crush tubes are in there, only GT's had them.
The cut out VIN is a big red flag.
To get the car to a $30-$35 grand value car will more than likely cost that much.
 
#39 ·
I think the factory reinforcement plates under the rear seat confirm it is a factory dual exhaust car. I have no doubt about that! Next time I'm out there I'll slide under the car and check it out and take some pics if I can get a good angle/view.
 
#34 ·
Pete and 22GT nailed: the law is in Steve's favor. VINs cannot be
legally transferred to a new body. If the seller moved the VIN to a
donor body, then he most likely sold the fake car immediately. The
present owner probably has no idea his car is a fake. However, I
suspect this scenario is unlikely. If possible, I'd contact the original
seller and let him know the good news about your newly discovered
VIN. He'll probably let you know if he transferred the VIN to a
different body. Like you, it's most likely he just didn't see the
second VIN.

My concerns relate to establishing ownership. Does the seller still
hold the title for the VIN? Do you at least have a bill of sale? What
was the wording on the bill of sale? There obviously wasn't a VIN
on the document when it was sold.

One other thought: a VIN search is only conclusive if you find a car
with your VIN and expose the fraud to authorities. If no VIN match
can be found, a fake car may still exist somewhere. Many states do
not title cars over a certain age. The fake car may be in a collection
and not driven in the past 10 years.

Find out if you can title the car in its current condition. In most
states, a sheriff or state police officer must witness the VIN in
person. If the car must be drivable before being titled, then use
an expert witness. With plenty of photos and notarized testimony
regarding the VIN's originality from an expert witness, you should
be able to establish your VIN's bona fides after restoration.

As for whether it's "worth" the effort...that's up to you. Once
ownership is established, I'd restore it with the understanding that
it won't bring top dollar relative to other A-codes. She's been rode
hard and the provenance will always be uncertain. You cannot
legally move or "restamp" the VIN you have to the normal location,
so you may be forced to cut a hole in the fender to make this VIN
visible to authorities. It hurts originality somewhat, but it's not
a big deal.
 
#35 ·
Pete and 22GT nailed: the law is in Steve's favor. VINs cannot be
legally transferred to a new body. If the seller moved the VIN to a
donor body, then he most likely sold the fake car immediately. The
present owner probably has no idea his car is a fake. However, I
suspect this scenario is unlikely. If possible, I'd contact the original
seller and let him know the good news about your newly discovered
VIN. He'll probably let you know if he transferred the VIN to a
different body. Like you, it's most likely he just didn't see the
second VIN.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Some good points!

I'm not sure I'll be able to locate the seller. I only did a little business with him and then bought some cars. The background story is that this guy has a restoration shop. I took a car to him after it was hit, and I did not like the service he provided. But, after some time I saw an add for an ad (in Auto Trader I think, or it may have been in the classified section of the local newspaper - this was before Craigslist was popular). So when I called on the ad I realized that I knew the seller (and he know me). It turns out that his shop had caught fire (he suspected a disgruntled employee of arson). he told me he was selling all of his Mustang parts cars because he was getting out of the business. So, I bought 5 cars:

1966 coupe (V8)
1665 coupe (V6)
1966 coupe (V6)
1966 2+2 (No VIN, but V8)
1967 Cougar (V8)

All the cars had titles except the 2+2. The BoS (if I have one) will say something to the effect that I bought 5 cars for xx dollars. But I have all of the untransferred titles to the rest of the lot. When I bought all of the cars, my idea was to use the best coupe body for a basis to build wither a nice coupe, or maybe take the top of the VINless 2+2 and convert a coupe to a 2+2. He told me he had cut the VIN, but I don't recall if he said why he cut it, or where the title to the 2+2 was. Regardless, I hauled all 5 cars to some property in east Texas where they have been sitting ever since I purchased them.


My concerns relate to establishing ownership. Does the seller still
hold the title for the VIN? Do you at least have a bill of sale? What
was the wording on the bill of sale? There obviously wasn't a VIN
on the document when it was sold.
Right, no VIN on the BoS. I'll look for a BoS tonight, but it may have just been a handshake. Since I got all of the titles, and some other documentation showing the PO had transferred ownership to the guy i was purchasing the cars from (the BoS to the guy I was buying them from).

One other thought: a VIN search is only conclusive if you find a car
with your VIN and expose the fraud to authorities. If no VIN match
can be found, a fake car may still exist somewhere. Many states do
not title cars over a certain age. The fake car may be in a collection
and not driven in the past 10 years.
Yes, I checked with the DMV and they ran checks on the VIN and came up empty. They even looked in the archived files and no hits. Not registered, not stolen, not salvaged. Through multiple calls I had three different state employees search and they all came up empty. That's the good news. It is still possible that someone did VIN another car, but sold it to an out of state buyer or even overseas. The VIN search is state-specific. In Texas, all cars are titled, even the old ones.

Find out if you can title the car in its current condition. In most
states, a sheriff or state police officer must witness the VIN in
person. If the car must be drivable before being titled, then use
an expert witness. With plenty of photos and notarized testimony
regarding the VIN's originality from an expert witness, you should
be able to establish your VIN's bona fides after restoration.
Right, so I can get a bonded title for the car, which will protect me in case someone comes forward with the title and wants to claim it. However, the car has to be inspected and the VIN verified before the bond process can begin. Unfortunately, the car must be complete for the inspection. So, to bond this car, I'll need to scrounge up an engine and transmission, some seats and other misc interior parts, some fenders and doors and mock up the car as best I can. The car does not have to run or pass any sort of safety inspection, it just needs to be "complete". So I'm pretty sure I don't even have to have a full interior. Just some buckets, the cluster, some pedals, a shifter, etc to make the car look like it is mostly there. That isn't too much trouble as I have all the parts to do this.

The bonded title is for 3 years, at which time it will convert into a standard title.

As for whether it's "worth" the effort...that's up to you. Once
ownership is established, I'd restore it with the understanding that
it won't bring top dollar relative to other A-codes. She's been rode
hard and the provenance will always be uncertain. You cannot
legally move or "restamp" the VIN you have to the normal location,
so you may be forced to cut a hole in the fender to make this VIN
visible to authorities. It hurts originality somewhat, but it's not
a big deal.
I think it is worth the effort. Since it is a "A" code fastback and a GT, I would love to bring it back to life. But I wouldn't do any real work to the car until I knew it was mine legally and no one could swoop in and lay claim to it.

I have a 1968 the had front end collision damage. The inner apron was replaced and there is no VIN there. The VIN on the dash and the door match. I think missing a VIN on that fender apron is probably more common than one would think. With the clear VIN further back on the apron, at least it is 100% verifiable that the VIN goes with the car.
 
#40 ·
Right? This is a keeper! I wish I didn't have any other projects going on right now. And I really wish I had someplace dry to put the car, protected from the elements. It is just sitting on the edge of field under some pine trees. Not a good thing to do!
 
#42 ·
Hmm..where did you find those VINs? I was wondering if I could figure out an approximate build date and/or build plant based on teh VIN number.
 
#45 ·
Yes, I did that first thing this morning. I actually ended up speaking to at least three differeent offices, and each offered to look the VIN up for me. Nobody at any office could find anything in their system for the VIN I provided.
 
#46 · (Edited)
I found the original Bill of Sale. There's no VIN for any of the cars, although all of them except the 2+2 had VINS and included the title. And I paid with a check!



Oh, and did I mention I got all 5 cars for $100? Yep. Granted they were all more or less picked over and had varying amounts of damage. But I thought $100 seemed reasonable at the time.

That was back in the day when you could still find Mustangs at wrecking yards just sitting out to rot.
 
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