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289 Build "Kit"

11K views 58 replies 12 participants last post by  patrickstapler 
#1 ·
#2 ·
honestly, you have screw in studs installed in your heads. I would move up one cam shaft size. It will work perfect with your combo. XE256H
 
#3 · (Edited)
well, .......

Allen, the lobe centers are too tight on that cam, I think your 289 would be happier with the 35-255-5. Keep in mind that for some of the cam choices you need to rewire the dizzy to 351 order (13726548 ). Looks expensive on the cam kit.....and why hard bearings,.....a street engine doesn't need that. And why buy pieces from Summit ? I'm sure the machine shop can get all of those pieces for you, and they're probably price competitive.........if you trust them with machining, why not trust them with getting the parts you want ? LSG
 
#5 · (Edited)
forgot to ask, where are you going to end up static compression wise? we can run the dynamic off those cam specs to give you an ideal of fuel requirements
 
#6 ·
So the cams you guys are suggesting are really close to each other, correct? XE256 and XE254?

The machine shops have really not even asked to provide the parts. I will be happy to ask them if they want to. Not opposed to them getting the parts (I'm sure they get a discount and happy to let them make some money). Wasn't sure on the bearings, that's why I posted here.

Thanks,

Allen
 
#8 ·


xe256 has more duration, more lift but wider LSA. More vacuum, better idle, reduced torque down low....however it's a small cam so that isn't an issue.

still need your static ratio
 
#9 ·
xe256 works and would be a good choice...

would put you at 7.99. Ideal range for pump gas is 8-8.5. It would let you run plenty of timing and pump gas all day long....altitude dependent on 87-93
 
#10 ·
#11 ·
did you read his other thread? been over this. Stock like rebuilt with auto and stock gears. the xe256 suits his wants and combo he has.
 
#13 ·
Xe256 isn't even close to stock specs
 
#14 ·
So then he's not doing a stock rebuild? Still not sure what your justification is for him running a 351w van cam in his 289 Mustang that he wants 300hp out of. Do you have any clue what it takes to make 300hp at the crank with a 289? Hint: the XE256 is not the answer.
 
#18 ·
COMP Cams Xtreme Energy Cam and Lifter Kits K31-234-3 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing
Clevite P-Series Rod Bearings CB634P10 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing
Clevite P-Series Main Bearings MS590P10 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing
Clevite Camshaft Bearings SH510S - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing
Melling Oil Pump Screen Assemblies 68-S - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-m68
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-381-8015
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-e-251kc40
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-3101hc-040
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/vri-95-3367vr

Trying to narrow this down. Updated list and will go with the XE256H cam. I will give the parts list to the shop to see if they want to order. If you guys see anything on this list that says "Whoa, NO", let me know...I realize that everyone will not agree on the cam but it appears to me (and I'm an amateur) that some of the cams are splitting hairs (may not be so, but the specs look close). I appreciate all of the input and learning as we go...

Thanks,

Allen
 
#19 · (Edited)
289 build

Allen, this cam also has the 110 LDA. It will work and it will be fine, but the engine will have more vacuum, better idle and low speed power with a 35-255-5, which has a 114 LDA. What intake is this engine going to have ? May I recommend a Weiand Speed Warrior, 8124 ? Your 289 would love it. LSG Rest of your choices look fine.
 
#20 ·
Allen, this cam also has the 110 LDA. It will work and it will be fine, but the engine will have more vacuum, better idle and low speed power with a 35-255-5, which has a 114 LDA. What intake is this engine going to have ? May I recommend a Weiand Speed Warrior, 8124 ? Your 289 would love it. LSG Rest of your choices look fine.
Thanks LSG. Using the stock cast iron 4bbl intake and autolite 480cfm 4100 carburetor.

Allen
 
#21 · (Edited)
Also LSG, the appeal to me with the cam that atitagain suggested, is the simplification of the kit and the suggestion with the kit of springs, rockers, push rods, etc. For those experienced, it's probably second nature, to those not experienced, it's a pain staking task to try and make sure you put the correct pieces together. IE., my original parts list and you asking, Why those bearings, they're not needed for this build. I know the shop would know these things but not sure (haven't ask yet) if they want that task. It's new to those of us who do it 2-3 times in a lifetime. Don't take me wrong, I enjoy learning the process from those of you who know it. Just making sure that you also understand the side of us who don't know.

Thanks again,

Allen
 
#22 ·
The parts in the kit are usually pretty similar kit-to-kit unless you jump up a ton in lift or switch to a solid cam or roller cam. You can get the P/Ns of the individual components of that kit and then choose a cam that will still work with the same parts. You don't need a kit.
 
#25 ·
COMP Cams High Energy Timing Sets 3220 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing
COMP Cams Computer-Controlled Camshafts 35-255-5 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing
COMP Cams Valve Seals 502-16 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing
COMP Cams Street Valve Locks 601-16 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing
COMP Cams Valve Springs 942-16 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-rp1436-16

Ok. Swapped out the cam to the 35-255-5 that LSG suggested because of his description of what it will do for me. If you guys can look over the parts that I have in the cart with it to make sure they are what i need, I would appreciate it (these are just the cam and associated parts as there is no kit for this cam). The valve springs (part #942-16 also had part #972-16), steel retainers (part #768-16 also had part #747-16) and valve locks (part #601-16 also had part #611-16) all had dual numbers beside them. From the notes, I think I chose the correct ones.

One question on this cam, what does "Computer Controlled (EFI) Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft mean when I'm not using anything computer controlled or EFI? I guess it is still a cam I can use?

I feel I'm about there. Also as a note, the crank is going to be -.020/-.020 not .010 as originally thought.

Thanks,

Allen
 
#26 · (Edited)
289 build

Allen, if you study the cam numbers, you'll notice cams intended for 4x4, marine, nitrous, or EFI generally have wider LDAs. The boats and trucks are trying to maintain some vacuum and torque at idle and low rpm. The nirtous guys are hoping to avoid unburned fuel and N2O from being wasted out the exhaust. The LDA in the choppy idling cars ( thumper cams ) is 106 or 107, the smooth as glass idle in your Aunt Mildred's Caddillac has 118 LDA. The computer EFI guys need the wider LDA so as not to confuse the MAP sensor. Most factory computer fuel injections use a Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor which will not function without enough idle vacuum. You can use the wide cams in carb'd car just fine, but you shouldn't go the other way and try to run the narrow cam in a fuel injected car. The MAP sensor will misread the low vacuum and spray too much fuel at idle. LSG

And, seriously, consider ditching the factory intake and get a Weiand Speed Warrior 8124 instead. You can keep the 4100 carb, thats fine. the head shop is giving you hard seats under the exhausts, right ? What size valves did you decide to use ?
 
#27 ·
Allen, if you study the cam numbers, you'll notice cams intended for 4x4, marine, nitrous, or EFI generally have wider LDAs. The boats and trucks are trying to maintain some vacuum and torque at idle and low rpm. The nirtous guys are hoping to avoid unburned fuel and N2O from being wasted out the exhaust. The LDA in the choppy idling cars ( thumper cams ) is 106 or 107, the smooth as glass idle in your Aunt Mildred's Caddillac has 118 LDA. The computer EFI guys need the wider LDA so as not to confuse the MAP sensor. Most factory computer fuel injections use a Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor which will not function without enough idle vacuum. You can use the wide cams in carb'd car just fine, but you shouldn't go the other way and try to run the narrow cam in a fuel injected car. The MAP sensor will misread the low vacuum and spray too much fuel at idle. LSG

And, seriously, consider ditching the factory intake and get a Weiand Speed Warrior 8124 instead. You can keep the 4100 carb, thats fine. the head shop is giving you hard seats under the exhausts, right ? What size valves did you decide to use ?
I'm going stock. I'm good with the suggestions that can take me past stock if I ever want to go aluminum heads and change the intake...but for now, bone stock on the intake and valves...

Allen
 
#30 ·
I like your last list of parts.


I would also suggest a good high rise intake. Carb. is fine.


Again - the HP difference - in your combination, will be good.


You can upgrade the intake later.


Don't sweat the last few HP - your choices are fine. Just have your shop verify and confirm they will work with your engine.
 
#34 ·
umm, NO........

FB97, you are wrong, and then wrong some more, and finally wrong again. The only thing you are correct about is the name, yes, the Weiand 8124 is properly called a street warrior. But everythinng else you have wrong.

1. what makes you think this is too tall under the hood ? It isn't. We have seen several folks with this intake on a small block, with a spacer, under a stock hood. Some guys use a drop base air cleaner. Are you confusing this with an Eddy Victor intake ?


2. No adapter plate is needed. The carb pad is about 1/2 inch thick all the way around on the later Weiand intakes. Perhaps your confusing with the Eddy performer and performer RPM, which both have carb pads about 1/8th of an inch wide and have been known for problems with the 4100 carb.

3. Have you read the dyno sheets for this intake as compared to stock ? Do you know HOW to read a dyno sheet ? Or are you confusing this intake with the Eddy Victor again ? The 8124 would be a nice improvement over stock, all across the range. Look it up.

4. I stand by my cam recommendation. Yes, you CAN turn the wick up, substantially, if you want to. But the cam I've recommended will do exactly what this fellow seems to be doing with his 289. Why add a choppy idle and get no benefit ? Just so some random internet guy can think your idle sounds cool ? And especially if he keeps the stock intake. How is a big cam going to help that ?

LSG
 
#36 ·
FB97, you are wrong, and then wrong some more, and finally wrong again. The only thing you are correct about is the name, yes, the Weiand 8124 is properly called a street warrior. But everythinng else you have wrong.

1. what makes you think this is too tall under the hood ? It isn't. We have seen several folks with this intake on a small block, with a spacer, under a stock hood. Some guys use a drop base air cleaner. Are you confusing this with an Eddy Victor intake ?


2. No adapter plate is needed. The carb pad is about 1/2 inch thick all the way around on the later Weiand intakes. Perhaps your confusing with the Eddy performer and performer RPM, which both have carb pads about 1/8th of an inch wide and have been known for problems with the 4100 carb.

3. Have you read the dyno sheets for this intake as compared to stock ? Do you know HOW to read a dyno sheet ? Or are you confusing this intake with the Eddy Victor again ? The 8124 would be a nice improvement over stock, all across the range. Look it up.

4. I stand by my cam recommendation. Yes, you CAN turn the wick up, substantially, if you want to. But the cam I've recommended will do exactly what this fellow seems to be doing with his 289. Why add a choppy idle and get no benefit ? Just so some random internet guy can think your idle sounds cool ? And especially if he keeps the stock intake. How is a big cam going to help that ?

LSG

I own a current production Weiand Street Warrior 8124.

- It will NOT comfortable clear the hood on a 65/66 with 1" carburetor spacer (including C4OE) and stock HiPo air cleaner/stock air cleaner.
- It will NOT work with an Autolite 4100 without an adapter plate and/or unique spacer like the Boss 302. You will have vacuum leaks without an adapter plate using the C4OE (regardless of hood clearance) and 4150 1/2" spacers.
-The stock OEM intake manifold has no disadvantage compared to the 8124 for someone driving around town and on the highway under 4,000 RPM's.
-You must not know what a choppy idle is! ;)

:cheers:
 
#35 ·
I realize that you are going to disagree with this LSG, however, I talked with CompCams today and also received their recommendation from the "long" form that I filled out with them. It seems to me that the 31-234-3 should be the cam of choice. The tech that I talked to today actually advised against using the 35-255-5. I also (I hope I've expressed enough) want to keep the stock look on this vehicle and realize the plug wiring would be different. With that all being said, I have to go with what the manufacturer is recommending. I will be using the pistons you have suggested.

Thanks you all for the input and the insight to you all as this has been, and is a learning process for me.

Thanks,

Allen
 

Attachments

#37 · (Edited)
289 build

AllenTurn, those two cams cams are actually very close. If you look back at post #19, you'll see I said it would work and be fine. Its just that the 35-255-5 is slightly better at idle and low rpm. You'll notice that both cams are advertized as 1000-5200. Did Comp's guy say why he wouldn't recommend that one ?

And on stock appearance......I'm thinking almost NOONE is going to notice the wiring difference. Metinks if you bought the Weiand 8124 and painted it blue........99% would not notice.


FB97, if yours doesn't fit, and has vacuum leaks, you must have put it on incorrectly. We have put this intake on 65 &6 cars, and it fits fine, and it doesn't leak. Many others have also installed this intake without trouble. I think you have an install problem. And the 8124 shows 10 lbs-ft better than stock iron @2500, 20 better @3K, and 40 better @3500, maintaining its advantage till 4500, when the stock cam is running out of breath. Its also averages 9 hp and 15 lbs-ft better than an Eddy 2121. Got any pictures of the install ?

LSG
 
#38 ·
AllenTurn, those two cams cams are actually very close. If you look back at post #19, you'll see I said it would work and be fine. Its just that the 35-255-5 is slightly better at idle and low rpm. You'll notice that both cams are advertized as 1000-5200. Did Comp's guy say why he wouldn't recommend that one ?

And on stock appearance......I'm thinking almost NOONE is going to notice the wiring difference. Metinks if you bought the Weiand 8124 and painted it blue........99% would not notice.

LSG
Got to be honest, I didn't ask. I have noticed they were close also. At this point, I'm ready to order and with the consensus (all but you :wink:) being the 31-234-3, I will get it (to play it safe). I already have the intake, so I really want to get it together with "stock" parts. I may play around afterwards with things such as intakes, headers, carbs, hell, maybe even heads at some point. But I think those are all for another day and probably with another car.

As said before, I do appreciate the insight and patience. I deal with customers in my business everyday and sometimes common knowledge to me is a different world to them. Hard to understand sometimes, but only because it's obvious you know the cams and what they do...

Once together, I will let everyone know my thoughts. And I'm sure there are more questions for me to ask. The more answers (especially informative), the better as I see it.

Thanks,

Allen
 
#39 ·
I'm with LSG on the 35-255-5, especially with the stock heads and intake. As far as the 351W firing order, nobody is going to start tracing your wires to see that you have 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 instead of 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8....it's only a pair of cylinders that are swapped, and it eliminates the chance of 7-8 crossfire.

I'd also recommend the Clevite 77 tri-metal bearings. You don't need (or want) "competition" bearings for the street. You also want to make sure you machinist knows what ring package you have chosen to provide the correct cylinder finish. I'd also recommend ARP hardware to hold everything together.

Don't know your machinist or who is going to do the final assembly, but I'd want to do/make sure the following is done...

1. All block/head casting flash is removed.
2. Oil galleries are brushed. I'd also tap them and use screw in plugs.
3. All holes are chased with a thread chaser, not a tap.
4. Block drain plugs are pulled and replaced after cleaning.
5. Degree your cam installation.
6. Have your balancer rebuilt.

Lastly, clean, clean and clean again.
 
#40 · (Edited)
I guess that changes the consensus numbers. It's really confusing to a layman to have people suggest a cam, the manufacturer suggest the same cam and yet those that you respect from seeing post on a forum suggest something else. I haven't ordered anything, simply because I don't know what to order...I realize either will work, but I'm trying to figure out if this is the difference between a dollar and 4 quarters or a dollar and a pound of gold...

Also, every bearing I have listed on my parts list is clevite tri-metal except (I think) the cam bearings...What am I missing there?

Allen
 
#43 ·
You guys are hilarious. There is more argument about building these Vintage Mustang Forum 4000 RPM "torque monster" 289s with 200hp than there would be about building a 450hp 289. You guys sure have a lot of opinions about something really boring.
 
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