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1967 Frame Dimension Question

9K views 30 replies 5 participants last post by  lowlyslows 
#1 ·
All,

I have been trying to get this question answered for a couple of weeks. Can someone please confirm that the 1967 Shop Manual dimensions are good? Specifically the rear most dimensions from the center of the shackle mount down 15.57".

I am able to get points A, B/C, and D to all line up with my laser but point E is low by 11/32". If I set the car to D and and E then point A is low by 11/32". This is throwing me.

Please, anyone confirm the numbers are good? The back of the car is clean with no damage.

Slows
 

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#2 ·
That dimension is correct.

Can you post pics from side and rear views as it sits now? Not that anyone will be able to spot an issue with them, but it may help the experienced here to see what's there and what's not. What is the best way to proceed advice is called for now.
 
#6 ·
I didn't have to mess with the back of my car when I was building my frame jig, but I do remember the guy at the body shop who checked my car's frame said the rear left dimension was 1/8" low and told me not to worry about it. He said old cars aren't as tightly toleranced as new ones, and I'd spend more time chasing the eighth inch error than it was worth. Which was nice to hear, especially considering how much work had to be done up front.
 
#7 ·
Yea I have heard the same thing. However, I am worried that if my front is off I won't know until it's too late and then I will have to redue all this work again. If I was that close (1/8") I wouldn't care but 11/32" is big space to be off by.
 
#11 ·
I haven't hung the passenger door yet. Considering that both sides of the car line up with the laser level, I would assess that yes it will look the same.

I can lay the cowling in place tonight and check. I don't have a hood unfortunately.
 
#12 ·
I am able to get points A, B/C, and D to all line up with my laser but point E is low by 11/32". If I set the car to D and and E then point A is low by 11/32". The back of the car is clean with no damage.

Good pics you took there.

That car has buckled a bit. Perhaps not supported well enough at some point of work progress. From the gaps it appears the cowl removal could have been a cause, but also aft of or at the rear torque box area is possible. Maybe both. The rear sub frame rails look from the pics spotty with corrosion as well, not good or as you said "clean with no damage".

Were that my car I would take it to a pro shop for straightening and an eye towards repair or even possible replacement of the rear rails, whichever is indicated and advisable.

This is only my opinion and I AM NOT AN EXPERT. There are others here I could name who have far more experience with this sort of condition than I do. I hope they speak up and provide their opinions and options for you. There may be a good home garage remedy (read, less expensive) but sometimes it's best for the patient to go to a doctor. I sincerely hope I am wrong and there is a viable workaround for you. I'm just not seeing it myself, particular as I am to frame dimension accuracy. It would just bug hell out of me down the road knowing it wasn't quite right.
 
#13 ·
Where is the buckle or what photo do you see it in? Everything is equal side to side.. I am not opposed to fixing the front, that is not out of my abilities. I agree that the dimension would bug me as well. There has to be some checks that I can do to ensure a "buckle" is not the case and just improper installment in the front. When the car was complete the back end sat symmetrical.

The rear frame rails have surface corrosion and a ton of undercoating chipping off. I will get a better look once I clean them up. I can also replace if need be and that is the point of the jig.

I appreciate your opinion but I would like to confirm with the photo(s) showing that the car has "buckled" from the firewall back (if I am reading your response correctly). I do hope more people with more experience do chime in as well. I have been trying to get responses for weeks on other threads with no luck. Taking the car to a shop is the last option as I want to continue this project on my own.

There are more measurements that I can take to ensure the car is correct firewall back. Maybe I should purchase a Tram Gauge. I will be at the Carlisle this weekend for a Mustang show. Might get some points there
 
#15 ·
This is based off the front of the car only right? Back of the car visually looks fine.

Looking at the top down or plan view of the Ford Service Manual there are a bunch of measurements. As long as these are correct on paper and I can match the back of the car to them then there is really no reason that I should not trust the firewall back of the car and can set the baseline/datum line to Point D and E.... Right??

Again, maybe purchasing a Tram Gauge is the best option right now unless I am missing something. The Ford Service Manual should confirm that the frame is good to go for the back of the car, I can then build on that.. I hope.

I found this on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Telescoping-Aluminum-Measuring-Tram-Gauge/dp/B0049GBASW
 
#19 ·
I don't know for sure but am game to venture a guess. Based on the diagonal measurement from the front rails, where does that 54.27 end up for you? Couple that with the diagonal from the back of the rear frame rail to the front or the rear frame rail at 52.5 inches should get you in the ballpark. That should give you a pretty good estimate by cross referencing. I'm looking at my rear frame rail replacement and there appears to be a hole in the torque box that looks like a good candidate although it doesn't seem as far away from the spring mount as the diagram appears:
https://www.cjponyparts.com/media/c...25d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/3/m3600lwt_5.1079.jpg

hopefully someone can confirm it.
 
#20 ·
I sent you a PM with my contact info.

The advice you have received here so far is sound.

From the information we have it appears that the front end of the car from the cowl forward is too low. With the cowl out, a lot of things can move just a little and make larger changes as distance from the cowl increases (ie hood to front of the fenders gap, bottom to the top of the door gaps).
 
#24 ·
Update: Spent the weekend cutting the posts away from the car with the plasma cutter. Cleaned all the slag and I decided to re mark the lines on the posts. I found that the measurement was slightly off on some of them. I then used the tram gauge and verified that the back of the car is within spec and equal on both sides. I installed all the tubes and then set the baseline/datum line to the rear 4 measurements. I decided to check the front four measurements and now the car is almost perfect. The front four post indicate that the car is slightly low in the front which corresponds with my original theory that the front rails need to come up. Turns out that the markings on the posts that were off were causing a leveling issue, especially over a longer distance (like to the back of the car!).

Now I just need to set the jig to it's new location and then weld on the back of the car. Once I do this I can verify how low the front is (looks to be an 1/8-3/16).

Making headway!

I will update once I get the car set in the back.

Paul
 
#25 · (Edited)
Update: Spent an hour yesterday re leveling the car to the 4 rear points (D and E in the attachment) to set the baseline. Prior to doing this I spent some time thinking about the variation in height between the rear frame rails at point E. One of the rails is a 1/16" high or one is low by 1/16". At the time I wasn't sure what would happen to the front of the car in relation to the baseline if I set the car to either side of point E. So, I purchased some poly bushings for the leaf shackle mounts in the rail to ensure that the hole is centered. Once I have the car level at point D on both sides I then set the driver side point E to the laser dot, rechecked point D, and ensured that I was hitting at all 3 points (both Ds and driver side E). I then swung the laser to point passenger side E and noticed that the line was ABOVE the laser dot by .06" or 1/16" indicating that this point was high and would have to come down which would bring the front of the car up. Since I know that the front of the car is low because of how the fenders sit, I know that my current baseline setup is correct. If I set it to the passenger side point E then the front rails read good in the front which is wrong.

I then measured how far off the front of the car is at all 4 points (both As and B/C). Driver side A is .200" below laser dot, Passenger side A is .283" below the laser dot, B .06" below the dot, and C is .123" below the dot. If you draw out the measurements you will notice that the front of the car drops off and to the right from the drivers seat. I put a 6' level across the front aprons confirmed this.

Tonight I am going to weld points D and E to the jig (after leveling the jig), run some 6' stringers under both A and B pillars and run some supports up to all 4 pillars, and then construct a separate jig for the front rails so I can move them to their correct spots for welding once I do repairs in the front.

4ocious, I ordered both Dynacorn rear frame rails. They are on back order and will probably not see them until early 2018 (get it together Taiwan!). I had to cut out a subframe connector from the rear frame rail and noticed that the metal was extremely thin at this location and figured that it would be good to have some new thicker metal here considering all the power I plan to have. The passenger side is rusted and bent up a bit at the torque box so, new metal it is!

Once again, making headway! I will try and post a video of my progress here soon. I also attached a copy of the ford service manual with the points I overlaid for those that run into a similar issue and don't want to hunt down a previous post in this thread.

Paul
 

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#27 ·
Hey Ryan,

I am gonna send you a PM, I am still not getting yours.. Yea I figured in the end that it's good to be as close to the factory numbers as possible but I should still check and make sure everything looks right prior to final welding.

Paul
 
#28 · (Edited)
Update:

Sorry for the long wait. I have a newborn and a wife to make happy prior to garage time!

I finalized the supports for the frame jig. I put 4 posts going up to the corners of the rockers where the outer rocker is spot welded to the inner rocker under the A pillar and the rear most portion of the rockers. Since I have to remove the front frame rails from the car, this should hold it in place along with the points (D and E) already laser leveled and welded to the main jig. I also made some adjustable feet to go under the added posts to ensure there is no movement vertically with the jig when the car is set down on it. I also started constructing the adjustable jig for the front to get the frame rails where they need to be. I took some extra 2" square tubing and cut to 5" lengths. I then drilled 1/2" holes in the top of them all the way through using a drill press with the plan to bolt to the lower control arm mount (they fit perfectly inside the mounts), level them vertically, and then weld a piece of square tubing between them the width of the jig. I picked up some U bolts and will mount scissor jacks underneath the square tubing to the main jig to aid in adjusting height. This will allow me to move the front rails, position them, confirm the fender to door to upper cowling reveals look good, and then finish welding the front points (A, B/C) to the jig. DONE!

I plan on removing the radiator core support to allow ease of access to the firewall area as well as adjusting the front frame rails. Once the front is all set I will put back on and modify to allow the top of the core support to be removable by either TIG welding some nuts or using a nutsert tool and fabricating mounts. This will allow getting to the cowl a heck of a lot easier and when installing the engine/trans. Should be a worth while mod!

I will get some pics and an updated video going on my channel soon, hopefully this weekend!

I might make a build thread and link to it since that is what this looks like it is going to become. ha!

Paul
 
#31 ·
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