66 coupe build - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-23-2019, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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66 coupe build

I figured I might as well start my build thread.

Plans are as follows
V8 swap, already have a 302.
T5 swap. May have the Astro A5 done to it as I donít know itís current condition.
Maybe do the hydro clutch conversion
9Ē swap
Discs all around with 5 lug conversion with all suspension
New wire harness
EFI setup
Basically things I would see as being typical

Have an idea on paint, body, wheels and entire. But not sure yet. I have to really get close to that point to make my mind up.

Stats so far
I got a suggestion to try and get the straight to at least run before pulling I. My intro thread so I ordered a new ignition switch as the one that was there was busted. Uncle said that the trans went out but I wonder if he got worked up and broke the ignition as well. Ha
Once that gets in I will see what I can do with getting it going. Then take some vids and what not and see if I can dump it quick.

On the 302
Was told it was in good running order but turns out it wasnít. I typically have trust issues and always have to rebuild or have things rebuilt to make sure they are good. When I pulled the top end apart a pushrod was bent and split. Better to find out sooner than later. So will have it completely gone through now. Maybe will try to make it a 347 while itís being torn apart. Not sure yet.

Ordered all new V8 suspension minus steering. I am going to keep the suspension ďstockĒ for now. Need to figure out what to do there as well. Have read that manual is better than power steering. As well as visaversa. I like simplicity but also like ease of functionality. So may need some swaying.

Ordered a T5 conversion setup.

Need to figure out what disc brake setup to go with. Have read that CSRS was the place to go. Since they are in Austin I could pick parts up easy when I go down to visit. I like the fact that they are fairly factory. I hate brake kits that then become impossible to find parts when they wear out.

On the 9Ē
I ha e been trying to figure out what to do here. I have read that guys will use the 8Ē. Or swap to an explorer rear. I just am not sure that I like those ideas. Also have read that by the time money is spent making the explorer good for the car, without high offset wheels. It costs more than itís really worth. I am not sure that spending $3500+ on something like a moser rear or whomever elseís make them is worth it either. Especially for its initial use. Down the road it may get crazy or it may get sold. But for now mild is acceptable.

With all that said have any of yíall heard of or used this rear? Worth it? Not? I was messaging the them and they seemed fairly knowledgeable and helpful.
eBay

Not sure on EFI yet. I have done a ton of research on the Holley stuff but just canít seem to wrap my head around it all.


Anyways, look forward to this build and all yíalls help and motivation on it.
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 11:23 AM
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Welcome!

Add pics, Iíll be following.

Ex-wife,....."You drove how far for that thing?"
Daughter,..."Theres no inside and it stinks."
Friend,......."Dude, thatís a rusted pile."
Son,.........."This old car is cool."

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Build Thread: http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vi...sted-pile.html
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 11:59 AM
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The manual vs. power steering thing is more about what you're able to tolerate. The factory setups use similar steering boxes (just different ratios) and yes power steering adds some stuff under the hood and the car. Mine had a leaky worn out factory setup and now has a Borgeson box and all new steering linkages and I dig it. Great feel. Easy. Less complex than the factory setup and cost effective. I added a roller idler arm and better tie rod adjusters.

If you're going with stock style suspension and just replacing old components with new, everyone here will make the same three suggestions.

1) Arning Drop (templates are cheap)
2) Roller spring perches
3) Proper alignment (the specs are posted all over this forum)

I'd personally also do adjustable or solid strut rods and some good shocks up front (I'm a bilstein fan, many like Konis)

I built a 331 out of a roller 5.0 block to avoid some of the issues inherent in the 347 builds. Mine made 420hp. MORE than enough for a light early car.

You're on the right track for front brakes. The stock Kelsey Hayes style setup is hard to beat. Good pads, rotors and fresh hoses and away you go.

The rear end thing becomes personal preference. An 8in is perfectly fine for a 400hp street car. Drag car? Slicks? Massive grippy tire launches? Might as well spend the bucks and build a 9. I put an 8in together before I figured out what motor I was building. All said and done, I'm into my 8 for what I could have built a 9 for. Live and learn I guess.

No matter what you're gonna want gears and some sort of traction (trak lok, posi, etc) and new bearings. The 8.8 is a good rear. Buying one out of an exploder with 3.73's a trak lok and discs already on it sure helps the pocketbook. Even though you're going to have to change an axle, shorten the housing and cut a bunch of brackets off and weld spring perches on.

I swapped from a holley carb to the Sniper EFI and would never look back. Once everything is on and the quick/easy setup menu has been gone through, it self learns and away you go. It starts on the first churn hot and cold. Idles nicely. No flat spots, bogs, weirdness. Gets great mileage (I average 21mpg on the freeway). No fuel smell. Don't have to pull anything apart to tune. Can add other things like fan control, AC kicks, Nitrous, etc etc. The only difficulties most people find are figuring our how they want to run fuel lines and which tank/pump setup. But there are a bunch of solid options now.

Post some pics! It's gonna be fun. Don;t forget to post updates too. I find its a really good motivator and you can look back and see the progress!!
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 12:27 PM Thread Starter
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Tried to edit post but couldn’t figure it out. I swear that I had them to begin with.
As it sits in my garage and then some pics of it in my uncles back yard.
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 01:11 PM Thread Starter
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Hey Rowdy, I havenot read about many of your suggestions yet. I appreciate all the info. Have afew questions though.

Steering
This borgeson box, does it use all factory linkage andwhatnot? Or is it all its own setup? Is it basically a power steeringreplacement style setup? Needing a pump and all that? Don't mind it if it isgoing to be better in the long run, just trying to get the info.


1) ArningDrop (templates are cheap)
I did aquick search, it looks like it changes the suspension geometry to help somestability?

2) Roller spring perches
Whats the advantage here? Mainly a concept similar tolike a roller lifter or rocker or something? To not bind the spring?

3) Proper alignment (the specs are posted all over this forum)
Will mostlikely be a while before this happens. This car has a long way to go. ha

331 vs 347

What aresome of the issues with the 347? Is it due to the reduced cylinder wall?Something else? I like those numbers that you stated the 331 could get. I amguessing all motor? Crank or to the ground?

Brakes
Glad to hearI am on the right track for brakes. My main concern is that if I go with thatsetup and then go with the setup on the 9" that I posted about, is thatthe brakes aren't going to match up. I want it all to be the same"system" per say. If that makes sense.

Rearend
What wereyour rough costs on your rear end build if you dont mind me asking? What aresome of the expected costs on the explorer setup that you have seen? I imagineit will depend on shop that narrows and what not but just curious what all istruly worth the cost differences.


EFI
Awesome dealon the Sniper stuff! I was really thinking of doing the all of Holley's setup.I noticed that Holley has new fuel tanks setup for this as well. So might bedoing that route once I get there as well.

Again thanks for the info. It helps nudge in the right direction. Also I am sort ofplanning on giving this back to my uncle for a while. He is probably not goingto want to accept it, that's why I say a while. ha



Last edited by tuckin22; 03-24-2019 at 01:15 PM.
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 03:49 PM
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UCA drop improves handling and lowers the front about 5/8"
Roller perch eliminates rubber bushing bind and makes the suspension more efficient
I don't have one but older 347 had oil consumption issue because of ring location
depending on your intended usage an 8" properly built may be just fine. I'm using one with a center built by https://www.ebay.com/usr/tj1141?_trk...88.m1543.l2754 and autox with it a T-5 and B303 cammed Edelbrock headed GT40P
If you intend to launch hard on slicks you might need more


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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 05:44 PM
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Hereís a cost breakdown for the Explorer rear swap. It could be done for cheaper if you can find one in great shape, but I opted to do new bearings and all new brakes, so it added up.

https://www.google.com/amp/forums.vi...u.html%3famp=1

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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 06:03 PM Thread Starter
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I don’t plan to launch this thing what so ever. No slicks or anything like that. At least not on this build. Cruiser is more what this one is going to be.

2nd 66
What kind of power are you putting down? Is what you have a 302? 331?

Just trying to get an idea of what to expect with the build.
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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Cool. Thanks for the link Blake!
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 06:54 PM
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The Borgeson setup is the box, shaft, rag joint and if you get the full kit it includes pump/bracket and lines. You still need centre link, tie rods/adjusters, pitman and idler arm (if converting from a 6cyl). It has the advantage of being all in one box with only two connections. They're a similar ratio to what the GT and factory PS cars got as well.

As 2ndd 66 said, the drop helps with suspension geometry. All the shelby cars got it and most of us have now done it as well. Cheapest and biggest improvement you can make on the car.

The roller spring perches reduce bind in the front suspension massively. The original design had brass bushings instead of rubber, but was dropped due to cost. Nobody thought mustangs would last that long

What were your plans for rear brakes? Most of the single piston rear kits that fit under 15in wheels won't overpower the fronts and if you're going to discs in the back, you'll need an adjustable proportioning valve anyways. Its all in how the bias is set up. My V8 drums in the rear have no problem stopping the car. Discs on the back of such light cars are really only for looks/cool factor in my opinion.

The cost for my rebuild with new bearings, 3.55 gears, trak lok, 67 pumpkin and axles assembled was around 2k. For an extra few hundred, I'd have a 9 and not worry about ever breaking it behind my current powertrain.

The 347 pistons have the wrist pin way up in/near the oil control ring. Early iterations had oil consumption issues. May not be a big concern.. but it's there. There are many opinions, but you can make significant power without a stroker.. it just helps with torque and a good idea especially if you're replacing pistons/rods anyways! You're half way there right. Looking back I may have done a Gt40P like 2nd 66 did. Pretty cheap power.

My 331 is all motor. That was on an engine dyno. Aluminum heads, 1.6 rockers, fairly mild cam and edelbrock manifold. Through K code manifolds with a 600cfm carb. Probably a little bit more now with the EFI on it tuned properly. It pulls like a freight train from 3000rpm to the redline I've set at 6400, but makes the same hp from 6k to 6400..

Blake posted a pretty good link to the costs of the 8.8 costs.
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
Discs on the back of such light cars are really only for looks/cool factor in my opinion.
I have to agree with this. Braking performance between the 8 with drums and the 8.8 with discs seems pretty much the same in my experience. That said, they do look super cool.
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 08:01 PM Thread Starter
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Hmm. Ok. I did a bit of looking on that borgeson setup and may end up redoing some of the factory manual setup. We will see when I hit that road.

Once I get the new suspension stuff in and actually install it I will definitely have to do this arning drop.

Will have to see if the suspension ordered came with the roller perches. If not then I will order a some

Rear brake plans were discs mainly for looks I guess. Parking brake is all that’s required.

Good to know on the gt40p heads. I have seen these mentioned quite a bit.
Also thanks for your engine info. Once I get this one completely torn down and used for initial mock up a few times. I will let the engine builder know some of this. Have been told a few folks in the area to take it to. So will see when that comes.

I like more torque though. I had built a 383 LS1 a while back for my C5. That thing was ridiculous. I could have pushed the limit with bore but it was not really all that good of an idea. Machine shop suggested that this was a reliable place to be at. Which is another huge factor on this build. Reliability!! Especially if I am going to have my uncle driving this thing.

I like the rearend ideas. Need to really figure that end out a bit.

Another thing I have been thinking about.

Can I get some thoughts on wheel sizing?

I have done a bit of looking on wheel configurations for these cars but most of them seem to be one off questions. There is a bit of general all situation information peppered throughout there. But still need to work on figuring that a bit.

I really want to go the style of cenerline revs. But they don’t appear to be manufactured anymore and have found a few of them still out there. 17x9.5 with 6” backspace.. think these would work on the stock V8 front with a stock width rear? I would have to scrounge to make sure I can actually acquire these though. I’m sure we’ve all had our fair share of ordering wheels and the. 5 weeks in they are discounted. The Colorado customs alamosa’s are the same style. But ridiculously expensive.
I know weld builds some this style but they only come in 15’s.
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeTX View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
Discs on the back of such light cars are really only for looks/cool factor in my opinion.
I have to agree with this. Braking performance between the 8 with drums and the 8.8 with discs seems pretty much the same in my experience. That said, they do look super cool.
Interesting. Maybe this can be something I rethink. I guess I really forget how “light” these cars are.
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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckin22 View Post
I donít plan to launch this thing what so ever. No slicks or anything like that. At least not on this build. Cruiser is more what this one is going to be.

2nd 66
What kind of power are you putting down? Is what you have a 302? 331?

Just trying to get an idea of what to expect with the build.
Well near as I can guesstimate with out a dyno on paper it specks out pretty close to the Ford Performance B2 https://bamrides.com/engines-and-tra...-crate-engine/ minus the 4 bolt main. GT40P block Edelbrock perfomer 5.0 heads B303 roller old school Edelbrock F4B intake Edlebrock 1406
Ford says 345

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
The Borgeson setup is the box, shaft, rag joint and if you get the full kit it includes pump/bracket and lines. You still need centre link, tie rods/adjusters, pitman and idler arm (if converting from a 6cyl). It has the advantage of being all in one box with only two connections. They're a similar ratio to what the GT and factory PS cars got as well.

As 2ndd 66 said, the drop helps with suspension geometry. All the shelby cars got it and most of us have now done it as well. Cheapest and biggest improvement you can make on the car.

The roller spring perches reduce bind in the front suspension massively. The original design had brass bushings instead of rubber, but was dropped due to cost. Nobody thought mustangs would last that long

What were your plans for rear brakes? Most of the single piston rear kits that fit under 15in wheels won't overpower the fronts and if you're going to discs in the back, you'll need an adjustable proportioning valve anyways. Its all in how the bias is set up. My V8 drums in the rear have no problem stopping the car. Discs on the back of such light cars are really only for looks/cool factor in my opinion.

The cost for my rebuild with new bearings, 3.55 gears, trak lok, 67 pumpkin and axles assembled was around 2k. For an extra few hundred, I'd have a 9 and not worry about ever breaking it behind my current powertrain.

The 347 pistons have the wrist pin way up in/near the oil control ring. Early iterations had oil consumption issues. May not be a big concern.. but it's there. There are many opinions, but you can make significant power without a stroker.. it just helps with torque and a good idea especially if you're replacing pistons/rods anyways! You're half way there right. Looking back I may have done a Gt40P like 2nd 66 did. Pretty cheap power.

My 331 is all motor. That was on an engine dyno. Aluminum heads, 1.6 rockers, fairly mild cam and edelbrock manifold. Through K code manifolds with a 600cfm carb. Probably a little bit more now with the EFI on it tuned properly. It pulls like a freight train from 3000rpm to the redline I've set at 6400, but makes the same hp from 6k to 6400..

Blake posted a pretty good link to the costs of the 8.8 costs.
Actually NOT all Shelbys got the UCA drop. Moving into the 66 model year it was axed as a cost/time saver

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeTX View Post
I have to agree with this. Braking performance between the 8 with drums and the 8.8 with discs seems pretty much the same in my experience. That said, they do look super cool.
+1
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckin22 View Post
Hmm. Ok. I did a bit of looking on that borgeson setup and may end up redoing some of the factory manual setup. We will see when I hit that road.

Once I get the new suspension stuff in and actually install it I will definitely have to do this arning drop.

Will have to see if the suspension ordered came with the roller perches. If not then I will order a some

Rear brake plans were discs mainly for looks I guess. Parking brake is all thatís required.

Good to know on the gt40p heads. I have seen these mentioned quite a bit.
Also thanks for your engine info. Once I get this one completely torn down and used for initial mock up a few times. I will let the engine builder know some of this. Have been told a few folks in the area to take it to. So will see when that comes.

I like more torque though. I had built a 383 LS1 a while back for my C5. That thing was ridiculous. I could have pushed the limit with bore but it was not really all that good of an idea. Machine shop suggested that this was a reliable place to be at. Which is another huge factor on this build. Reliability!! Especially if I am going to have my uncle driving this thing.

I like the rearend ideas. Need to really figure that end out a bit.

Another thing I have been thinking about.

Can I get some thoughts on wheel sizing?

I have done a bit of looking on wheel configurations for these cars but most of them seem to be one off questions. There is a bit of general all situation information peppered throughout there. But still need to work on figuring that a bit.

I really want to go the style of cenerline revs. But they donít appear to be manufactured anymore and have found a few of them still out there. 17x9.5 with 6Ē backspace.. think these would work on the stock V8 front with a stock width rear? I would have to scrounge to make sure I can actually acquire these though. Iím sure weíve all had our fair share of ordering wheels and the. 5 weeks in they are discounted. The Colorado customs alamosaís are the same style. But ridiculously expensive.
I know weld builds some this style but they only come in 15ís.
probably not without flairs/mini tubs and not on the front for sure


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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
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Well heck on the wheels. I may just get the car all built and then get complete custom offset wheels built.

Not bad on the power guesstimate 2nd66.
I took a look at that 8” rear center section and also started calculating the over all build cost. It looks like:
Rearend $200-300
Cener section $975
Axles depending $200-300
Seals bearings and all $100
Worse case is at about $1675 without brakes.
I am sure I can do a ton of shopping and waiting to find the right parts at the right price. But I can sometimes be impatient.

That rear I had found is about $1900 with brakes and it’s a 9”.

Link to rear
http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBa...rsion=2b4e7557

I know that the explorer will most likely be the cheapest option though. It may also be all that is needed as well.
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