bypassing pmgr mini starter solenoid - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-18-2018, 05:29 PM Thread Starter
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bypassing pmgr mini starter solenoid

I am thinking about upgrading to one of these. Has anyone who has a pmgr mini starter bypassed the onboard solenoid and used the factory solenoid?

Reason for the question is that I have a trunk mounted battery and solenoid and I don't want to have a constant 'live' wire from the trunk to the starter. Looking at these starters, it just seems like a standard solenoid attached (send start signal, activate solenoid/relay, starter gets power from battery). My thoughts on this is that the charge from the battery would have to travel the length of the car regardless of whether the solenoid is next to the battery or next to the starter. If there is a voltage drop, it will occur in both conditions. Would the distance of the solenoid on these starters have a great affect on its effectiveness?

For reference; I currently have a 1/0 gauge welding wire cable from my solenoid to the starter, about 8' in length.

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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-18-2018, 06:20 PM
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Yes. I used the factory solenoid. I ran the power cable from the factory solenoid to the PMGR solenoid power connection. Then i made a jumper wire from the PMGR power lug to the PMGR solenoid + terminal. With this connection, applying power to the power lug of the PMGR solenoid, then pulls in the PMGR solenoid causing the starter to crank the engine.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-18-2018, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jsams View Post
Yes. I used the factory solenoid. I ran the power cable from the factory solenoid to the PMGR solenoid power connection. Then i made a jumper wire from the PMGR power lug to the PMGR solenoid + terminal. With this connection, applying power to the power lug of the PMGR solenoid, then pulls in the PMGR solenoid causing the starter to crank the engine.
As I don't have one in front of me yet, I don't think I am following your terminology of the posts. I found a picture below online and named the posts. Is the 'PMGR solenoid power connection' you mention the post labeled 'Battery Post' or 'Motor post'? Then for the jumper wire, which posts does it tie together? Thank you
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-18-2018, 07:29 PM
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Make a jumper from the battery post to signal activator post.
This way when you apply power to the “battery post” from the old solenoid, the solenoid on the PMGR pulls in.
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-18-2018, 08:19 PM
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He is correct. You would basically put a ring terminal on the black wire in that pic and hook it to the battery post terminal. Basically like how we used to hot wire cars in the old days. Ah hell, the statute of limitations is way past up by now.
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-19-2018, 12:24 AM
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It's simple enough to do, the factory already did it and you just follow their lead. Some Explorers and other trucks (like my 1995 F150) came with PMGR starters AND the old school remote solenoid. You don't bypass, you just run both solenoids in conjunction. I put my solenoid in the trunk. When I turn the key to start, power goes to the trunk solenoid which then powers up the cable to the onboard solenoid. In my case I ran a separate relay to simultaneously trigger the onboard solenoid.

A simpler way is to run a jumper wire from the heavy cable to the onboard solenoid terminal and thus eliminate the extra relay I am using. But to do that you need a fair sized diode on that jumper. If you don't use a jumper the spinning starter motor backfeeds power to the solenoid and keeps the starter motor engaged a second or two after you let off the key. THis is hard on starter and flywheel teeth plus it makes a nasty noise. I've heard some people say they haven't noticed the backfeed issue when wiring that way but I always got it.
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-19-2018, 05:16 AM
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No need for that.
Just use an automotive mega fuse. It will handle a starter motor application no worries. I have my battery in the trunk with a 250amp 32v mega fuse. It has been going for two years now, and it gets started every second day. They are slow blow fuses, and an adequately sized one will not blow with a starter motor draw(maybe if you kept cranking it while in gear??) It will blow pretty quickly if it earthed out though. They are used in various factory cars.
People need to move on from the solenoid relocation thing if they have a solenoid on the starter. No need.

Like this one
http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/au...e_mega_32v.pdf
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-19-2018, 07:20 AM
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My '06 F150 is factory equipped with a PMGR starter, and I first thought is didn't have a fender mounted solenoid, but later discovered it had one buried in the wiring. If you do not use a fender mounted solenoid, you run the risk of burning out the ignition switch because it was never designed for that much amperage.
If you have ever has an old Chevy, which used a starter with a solenoid mounted on to of it, you have probably experienced the dreaded "click" when trying to start. This is caused by burned contacts in the ignition switch and too much resistance in the start circuit wiring. The cure was to adapt a Ford style fender mounted solenoid.
Not using a solenoid with a PMGR will work, but for how long is anybody's guess.

Fox type Mustangs use a starter solenoid with a built in diode. So if you don't need a solenoid with two small terminals, it will work well.

John

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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-19-2018, 10:29 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you all for the replies thus far. Yes, I do plan on using a solenoid on the system. The solenoid will be the fender mounted one (now located in the trunk) that will trigger the PMGR mounted solenoid. My fender mounted solenoid is of the foxbody variety as I have it installed in my EFI converted car - it has a built in diode.

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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-19-2018, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j persons View Post
My '06 F150 is factory equipped with a PMGR starter, and I first thought is didn't have a fender mounted solenoid, but later discovered it had one buried in the wiring. If you do not use a fender mounted solenoid, you run the risk of burning out the ignition switch because it was never designed for that much amperage.
If you have ever has an old Chevy, which used a starter with a solenoid mounted on to of it, you have probably experienced the dreaded "click" when trying to start. This is caused by burned contacts in the ignition switch and too much resistance in the start circuit wiring. The cure was to adapt a Ford style fender mounted solenoid.
Not using a solenoid with a PMGR will work, but for how long is anybody's guess.

Fox type Mustangs use a starter solenoid with a built in diode. So if you don't need a solenoid with two small terminals, it will work well.


Not entirely accurate....the reason why people used ford solenoids on Chevy was because heat soak with the solenoid being on the starter, not the ignition switch. Moving the solenoid away from engine heat helped prolong life.


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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-19-2018, 12:45 PM
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Other than the trigger wire to the solenoid, the only time the starter wire from the trunk mounted solenoid is hot is when the starter is cranked.
Not so the large gauge wire from the battery to the alternator.


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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-19-2018, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just one View Post
Not entirely accurate....the reason why people used ford solenoids on Chevy was because heat soak with the solenoid being on the starter, not the ignition switch. Moving the solenoid away from engine heat helped prolong life.


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You are not moving the solenoid away from the engine, the Ford solenoid sends current to the chevy solenoid because the chevy solenoid has the bendix incorporated with it. The heated soak is a valid point, but they would sometimes fail to engage even on a cold engine. If you ever get one, check the resistance in the wiring to the starter.

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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-19-2018, 01:44 PM
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Not all Chevys are created equal. Not that I'm an expert on GMs, but I seem to recall the switch problem was more an issue on the trucks. Heat soak VERY much a problem on '70's Corvettes. If you replaced the starter and were too lazy to put the heat shield back on with the new starter you figured that one out pretty quick. The "Corvette" heat shield was also a popular addition to many another GM product.
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-19-2018, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbenichou289 View Post
Thank you all for the replies thus far. Yes, I do plan on using a solenoid on the system. The solenoid will be the fender mounted one (now located in the trunk) that will trigger the PMGR mounted solenoid. My fender mounted solenoid is of the foxbody variety as I have it installed in my EFI converted car - it has a built in diode.
If you want to use a solenoid instead of a fuse, and you move it into the trunk, you are still going to have a live wire from the rear to the front for the charge wire. So now you have to run two heavy gauge wires and are going to have to add a fuse on the other one anyway. Plus you are running the solenoid trigger wires to the rear also. Adding wiring for the sake of it.

If you really want to use the solenoid, then run a single fused cable like I said, to the solenoid in the engine bay. That saves you running multiple wires to the rear.
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-19-2018, 04:46 PM
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If you do not use a fender mounted solenoid, you run the risk of burning out the ignition switch because it was never designed for that much amperage.
You use a relay. Most factory cars have a starter relay. Ignition signal goes to that, and it sends 12v to the starter mounted solenoid.
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