Compare full front suspension packages for 67 vert - Page 2 - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jsulse View Post
Another vote for Shawn at Street or Track. He is great to deal with. I purchased the tubular front end kit and his 13" brakes up front and the stock 11" brakes with Porterfield pads on the 8.8 Explorer rearend out back. Cars handles well and stops on a dime, straight and true. Running manual brakes and the feeling is solid, predictable with just a slightly heavier brake pedal feel compared to vacuum booster, I really like it! Will upgrade rear brakes someday to 12"


J
I got SoT’s 13”x1.25” ftont brakes too. They’re awesome. This helps me make the change to manual braking. Thanks!

-Chris

'68 Mustang
347ci that has a lot of neat stuff in it
T5 manual trans, alum driveshaft, 9" w/3.70 gears
Suspension parts from SoT, Global West, Maier Racing, and a few others. Works for me!
TCP manual rack (love it)
EPAS (Love this the most)
VWW V45 wheels (like these too)
SoT 13" brakes (stopping is good)
And I finally got a paint job!
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 06:57 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by blueovalfan68 View Post
I got SoT’s 13”x1.25” ftont brakes too. They’re awesome. This helps me make the change to manual braking. Thanks!
I already have 13” cobra PBRs for the front and 11.5”(?) Rear disks off an 86 mustang SVO. Also a 1” bore manual master cyl. The manual drum brakes on two 67s I have owned sucked on their best day. So even if the manual (non power) disk feels a little stiff, it should be an improvement.

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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-10-2019, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by blueovalfan68 View Post
I got SoT’s 13”x1.25” ftont brakes too. They’re awesome. This helps me make the change to manual braking. Thanks!
I already have 13” cobra PBRs for the front and 11.5”(?) Rear disks off an 86 mustang SVO. Also a 1” bore manual master cyl. The manual drum brakes on two 67s I have owned sucked on their best day. So even if the manual (non power) disk feels a little stiff, it should be an improvement.
Awesome, thanks!
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-Chris

'68 Mustang
347ci that has a lot of neat stuff in it
T5 manual trans, alum driveshaft, 9" w/3.70 gears
Suspension parts from SoT, Global West, Maier Racing, and a few others. Works for me!
TCP manual rack (love it)
EPAS (Love this the most)
VWW V45 wheels (like these too)
SoT 13" brakes (stopping is good)
And I finally got a paint job!
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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-11-2019, 11:26 AM
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I used Dorman DHB-M390395 master cylinder with 1" bore (replacement for a Ford Aerostar I believe) purchased from Summit Racing with SorT 13" brakes. It has ports on the driver's side making brake line routing cleaner. Also using Wilwood proportioning valve mounted on driver's side. Summit sells the proportioning valve brackets used to mount valve to the two master cylinder mounting bolts. Adding a hydraulic clutch master cylinder and after eyeballing it may have to reroute/rebend the lines, it's going to be tight but may work as I have it built now. Used the copper/Ni tubing which I also highly recommend bends and flares easy.
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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-11-2019, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by caveeagle View Post

I really like the idea of going with struts that connect to the LCA, but that’s not based on anything more that “it looks better to me”.

Is this design actually superior in a car like this? Does this give me the ability to adjust ride height? Or spring rate?
Thanks for giving us a look!

Putting our shock on the LCA allows for a longer shock and a 50% improvement in motion ration. A longer shock has more oil and a longer tube so will dissipate heat quicker. The improvement in motion ratio means more of the shock is used per 1" of wheel travel. This gives the shock oil more contact with the compression/rebound shim stacks for a more refined and controlled ride.

We are the only supplier that custom valves a high quality brand name shock specifically for your car. You do not simply get something that fits the gap with generic valving.

If you have any questions please let me know.
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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-13-2019, 09:07 PM
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I went with TCP back in '08 when I built my car. I really struggled with the expense, but a friend encouraged me to go for it with, "How many times will you get this opportunity?"

I initially loved everything about their kit except for how it mounted to the top of the tower. The entire suspension load is carried by the three 3/8" bolts loaded in tension. I wasn't comfortable with that. So, I threaded the holes in their upper bracket for 12mm bolts that I screwed in from below. It's not only stronger, but made installation much easier. You can now remove the export brace without jacking the front end up to get the load off the suspension. I shared my idea with TCP. They blew me off.

I don't drive the car much at all - maybe a coupla thousand miles a year, if that. It's a garage queen. But, not more than a coupla years after the build, I got some horrible squeaking in the front end. The dampers (shocks) are mounted with urethane bushings with a 1/2" through bolt in a sleeve. That works great at first, but a problem larger than squeaking presented itself. Just from the weight of the car, the urethane bushings experienced what's called cold flow. The sleeve had migrated upward through the bushing and in one place was in contact with the aluminum shock body! Chunks of urethane were sitting on the LCA.

I contacted TCP, and they reluctantly sent me a new set of bushings - same material, only not deformed, yet. I swapped them out, and everything was fine for a while. Unfortunately, the squeak is back. I haven't looked, but I bet the sleeves have again migrated through the bushings.

So, unless they've made some changes in these areas, I cannot recommend TCP. It's so close to a great system, but it's not there.

Had to do it today, I would go with SoT. I like parts of each system, and would ideally have a hybrid of the two.

PJ
Formerly known as Bashed68.
Resto-modded '68 convertible.
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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 01:50 PM
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I'm doing an I6 conversion for a cruiser convertble and a Coyote conversion for a sportier cost-less-of-an-object fastback. I both cases, I also want a one-stop-shopping package that includes everything for the front-end.

Here are ballpark price comparisons for the two options I'm favoring...

* Street or Track base package: $3K
- Add $2K for 12" rotors and 4-piston calipers
- Add either...
- $1.2K for manual rack and pinion kit OR...
- Add $1K for new steering box plus misc linkages and parts
Total: about $6K

* Detroit Speed AlumaFrame: $7K
- Add $2K for 14" rotors and 6-piston calipers
Total: about $9K

I plan to use EPAS regardless, so power steering options are not included in either approach. But that's another $1.5K added for power steering. Going hydraulic costs about the same. Gosh this is an expensive hobby. I must be crazy.

While the cost difference is about $3K, the DSE setup provides a significant amount of exotic, sexy parts for the money. First, it's a complete tested package that includes everything I need. How much money and time will I save shipping assorted steering parts? Second, I really like C6 Corvette spindles due to their strength, light weight, better geometry, and larger brake options. Third, I really like the modern SLA geometry and the resulting camber gain specs. Fourth, the front frame gets a lot of added stiffness due to the beefy cast aluminum cross member yet adds minimal weight. The chief downsides to the DSE kit are just not-relevant for me: 17" wheels minimum and more work installing. I plan to use 18" wheels and the Alumaframe install is nothing compared to the rest of the work I need to do.

On the other hand, $3K goes a long way towards final paint or whatever. Does anyone care that a sunny day cruiser convertible has 14" disks and C6 Corvette spindles? I don't think so. I like the simple, light design for the SOT package while avoiding the MacPherson Strut path. I just wish SOT offered an integrated, engineered, and tested package so there's no need to piece-meal brakes, steering, linkages, etc. But that's a complaint common to all aftermarket vendors. About 99% of their customers just need one part, not The Whole Megillah like me. Ah well, I'll deal with it.
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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 03:24 PM
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$1699 for 12" brakes, $1799 for 13" brakes.

You are forgetting the 100's of hours labor putting the DSE kit in. You'll have a tenth of that with our systems. Even if you are doing it yourself your time is worth something.

We make complete packaged solutions, not sure where you are seeing the piecemeal options. All day long I sit on the phone talking with customers and helping them plan their build. We have all the core components you are going to need from small fittings and gaskets to the big stuff.

Give me a call if you like, I'll be happy to help you put a compatible plan together. 8-)
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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 04:29 PM
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I got everything for the front suspension from Opentracker Racing. I am running manual steering so I went with the roller idler arm. I used the blueprinted street performance upper & lower control arms, performance 600lb progressive rate coil springs, & did the 1" lowering Arning/Shelby upper control arm drop, adjustable strut rods, roller spring perches, & a 1 1/8" front sway bar. I also replaced all the tie rod ends & sleeves.

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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 06:17 PM
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If you are doing a Coyote engine in the Detroit Speed AlumaFrame, add another $3k for headers. I assume you probably have to use their headers so they fit.
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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by hsvtoolfool View Post
Third, I really like the modern SLA geometry and the resulting camber gain specs. Fourth, the front frame gets a lot of added stiffness due to the beefy cast aluminum cross member yet adds minimal weight.
Just a few thoughts, do you KNOW the geometry is better than a modified stock style suspension ? Just because it was sourced from a 'Vette doesn't mean it's better. A Corvette has substantially different track width, wheelbase, wheel & tire package, and rear suspension to match. As for the frame stiffness, from what I've seen it doesn't address the weakest part, which is transferring forces from the front rail/apron through the cowl to the rockers.

'65 A-code coupe, T-10 4-speed, 8" 3.25 limited slip
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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-15-2019, 07:25 PM
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$1699 for 12" brakes, $1799 for 13" brakes.
Thanks! I got the rough numbers off your web site, so I must have overlooked these two items or looked at the wrong things. I always round up for a pessimistic cost analysis since the little items we forget tend to add up and blow budgets. For example, I forgot to add $200 for shock tower panels required for the DSE Alumaframe. No doubt there's more.

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You are forgetting the 100's of hours labor putting the DSE kit in.
50 hours additional labor is more likely, but even that is rather irrelevant in the big picture. Remember, both my cars are total, ground-up restorations. The cowl repairs, frame rails, and front torque boxes alone will be much more time and trouble.

At least in my case, the additional labor for the DSE kit involves removing the shock towers (30 min via plasma torch and BFH), measure, fit, drill, and weld the steel plates to the frame rails (8 hours), bolt the DSE frame to the rails (1 hour), weld custom shock tower panels (8 hours), and finally add the required frame-rail-to-firewall bracing (8 hours). Double my guesstimates to about 48 hours as a worst case. Supposedly it can be a weekend job if two people really go at it.

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We make complete packaged solutions, not sure where you are seeing the piecemeal options.
I was going by what I found on your web site, so I missed the complete front-end package. If you can provide a link that includes suspension, brakes, and steering with all required linkages and fiddly bits included then I would appreciate it VERY much. I realize that each install is unique, but even having "generic" bundles that includes everything is very helpful from a cost-analysis viewpoint.

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All day long I sit on the phone talking with customers and helping them plan their build.
Speaking as someone who provides tech support each day to electrical engineers (who you'd think would know how read a manual, use personal computers, and browse the Internet), you have my deepest sympathy, Sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
We have all the core components you are going to need from small fittings and gaskets to the big stuff.
Excellent!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
Give me a call if you like, I'll be happy to help you put a compatible plan together.
We'll talk. I've still got some penny scrounging and garage prep to do. But I'm getting closer.

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Originally Posted by Project Creep View Post
If you are doing a Coyote engine in the Detroit Speed AlumaFrame, add another $3k for headers.
What if I fabricate my own headers for both cars just for the challenge and fun? Full stainless kits with flanges, J-bends, and collectors run about $800. Tuck everything right where I need it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen_wilson View Post
Just a few thoughts, do you KNOW the geometry is better than a modified stock style suspension?
I never said one was better than the other. The camber/caster curves for the DSE Alumaframe are published (and excellent by the way). I like the C5/6 Corvette spindles for several reasons. They are better than stock 1960s V8 spindles in every regard: weight, strength, smaller pivot distance to wheel mount face which means wider tires fit and have a better scrub radius, and brake options are plentiful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen_wilson View Post
A Corvette has substantially different track width, wheelbase, wheel & tire package, and rear suspension to match.
Obviously, the DSE Alumaframe is not a Corvette suspension and only uses spindles similar to the C5/6 design. DSE designed the Alumaframe specifically for 65 to 70 Mustangs and those are the only vehicles it supports. Detroit Speed has a very good reputation and their cars consistently win at national track events. I'm confident they know their stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen_wilson View Post
As for the frame stiffness, from what I've seen it doesn't address the weakest part, which is transferring forces from the front rail/apron through the cowl to the rockers.
I was specifically referring to twist between the frame rails themselves. The front frame rails should remain in a flat plane relative to each other. The thick steel cross-members in modern shock-tower-delete kits are a huge improvement over a stock tubular cross-member bar which does very little to prevent twisting. Now look at how wide the DSE frame is front-to-back. Twisting forces are spread across a wider area and the frame rails effectively become one large unit. The DSE Alumaframe design is very good at resisting twist, yet is lighter than a single, large steel beam. Pretty cool.

Obviously, bracing is also required from the frame rails back to the firewall and A-pillars. Browse the Build Forum for example photos of how this is done. Mustangs To Fear even makes a kit. It's not that big of a deal. In fact, it's a good idea to apply this trick for a better handling stock suspension.
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