Cleveland-Custom can? And grinder - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 05:16 PM Thread Starter
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Cleveland-Custom can? And grinder

1) do you believe a high performance Cleveland needs a custom cam?

2) who would you get to grind it?


Iíve got a lunati voodoo hydraulic roller and Iím thinking about sending it back to Summit.
Iím shooting for a 500hp in my 383 stroker óstreetble car.
Here are the specs for off the shelf Lunati Cam.
.282/290 advertised
.232/.239 @0.50
.611 lift
110 LSA/ 106 ICL


Sound off please!!
Opinions wanted!




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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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Cam/ Cam /Cam,

Not ďcanĒ
Wouldnít let me edit title



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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 05:57 PM
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I'd go search on the Pantera forum for more/bestest hardcore 351C info.

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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 06:32 PM
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That cam looks fine to me.
Install it at 104 ICL
Also look at or join the www.the351cforum.com ? Index page
I'm sure you know this, but run good one piece valves and the recommended valve springs.

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372 Cleveland, 4 speed, 9" T.50 Trac Lock axle, Toploader, Global west suspension, Big Lincoln Trans Am Brakes front, Eldorado caliper/ MK VII disk rear.

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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 07:34 PM
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I'm all for going custom. There was never a 383C from the factory as you know. Make sure it's right for both your wants and the engine's needs by letting a professional spec it. The ideal opening and closing points are no longer the same as a 351C.

Lots of good custom cam designers out there. I'd go with Bullet myself but that's just me.

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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 10:06 PM
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Ask Randy Gillis which Cleveland cam grinder he recommends. He is GT350HR on this website.
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 10:24 PM
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Tongue cleveland cam

Mike, send it back. Its too narrow. Do you have large port heads or small ? what intake ? Auto or manual ? LSG
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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I currently have 4v quench heads ported and epoxied with a hi port Roush intake.See pics.

Powerglide transmission. With 3500 stall and 4.11 gear.


However, I do have (at the moment) a set of boss 302 heads and a Holley street dominator I could use....

My heart / and my mindís eye is telling me to aluminum heads and dual plane intake.
Thatís why I have the boss 302 heads for sale, and am thinking very seriously about selling both sets of heads and both intakes to get a new aluminum set.




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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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Too narrow how?


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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 10:51 PM Thread Starter
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 10:27 AM
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You've got threads going everywhere and your head is spinning around with B2 heads / filled heads / aluminum heads. What intake, OMG. You need to nail it down and commit to *something* before ever picking up the phone and talking to a cam grinder, as all of that affects the cam specs the grinder will settle on. If you can't commit, then you should punt and talk to an engine builder who *knows* Cleveland engines. You also need to be realistic with yourself about *what* the car will spend 99% of it's time doing. Big lumpy cams and loud mufflers sure sound awesome in the driveway or at the cruise in, but actually *driving it* is a whole 'nother story.

IMO, use what you have. The beauty of those heads is you don't *need* to spend money on aftermarket units. Aluminum heads are shiny and look cool, but you can pizz away tons of money and not have anything any better than what's already on your shelf. The Strip Dominator with the B2 (aka 351C 4V closed chamber) heads is a proven combo on a 351 engine. Couple that with a properly ground cam that reflects a realistic idea of what you're doing, the extra cubes and you should be good to go.

LSG's "too narrow" comment refers to the LSA - lobe separation angle. The Pantera guys feel that for the 4V heads, a 114* LSA is optimum, too narrow and overlap gets excessive and starts to affect the driveability. Clevelands developed a reputation for a soggy bottom end due to the fact that builders used "Chevy think" when they spec'd out a cam. It's literally like comparing apples to a rib eye steak.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 02:04 PM
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Hi Mike,
I think you picked a very nice cam for your engine. The LSA is NOT too narrow. Going to 114 is STUPID. I don't care what George Pence says. This is not a Pantera. A vehicle with a powerglide needs a good amount of low end torque as opposed to a 5 speed manual trans.
Since I know nothing about the flow number of the modified ( filled) heads and Roush intake, I will say that the cam you have chosen installed on a 106*lsa with the Boss 302 heads and Holley intake WILL make 500 hp ( or more) with a "safe" 10ish to 1 compression ratio. The Cleveland/Boss head is ( unlike most others) overlap dependent. The 32 additional cubic inches make a dramatic change as has been noted and cam timing can be changed to enhance power. I built a 408C with a normal hydraulic lifter cam ( on a 106*lsa) that made 500 hp with 351C closed chamber heads and a strip dominator intake. I wrote a how to build it article for the Pantera guys in '92 IIRC. The owner drove it to an event in Las Vegas and raced it against all of the "trailered" big dogs posting fourth top time behind another of my 408's ( with a roller cam and dry sump) and two other tube chassis dedicated race cars ( road race). He then drove it back home.
I ran a powerglide behind my 438ci all aluminum 351C for 8 years in three different vehicles. It ran best with a 106*LSA cam ( and I ran several through it) While it was in the rear engine dragster it ran a best of [email protected] 182 MPH in 1981. Yes there are allot of "I" s in this post because "I" did it instead of reading about how someone else did it or their opinion.
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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Guys,
I appreciate all feedback, thatís why it asking for it.
And yes, you are right, I do have a couple threads going on a different sites, as I assume not everyone frequents both.


And as you can see, answers are all over the place.
All I can do is seek as much info as possible, from as many sources as possible, research on my own,and then form my own opinion and game plan.

I want to do this right the first time and cant afford to do it twice and not be happy with it.
Both financially and emotionally.
Iím losing sleep and work production sweating it out over all of this stuff!!

Again, thanks to everyone.
Mike

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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
1) do you believe a high performance Cleveland needs a custom cam?
Maybe not 'custom,' but a modern grind for sure! The fuel you get at the pump today is very different from what was available in 1970. And your cam, heads, carb, intake, and exhaust all work together as a system. Select a cam spec, whether custom or off the shelf, that's optimized for your system AND how you intend to use the car.

Quote:
2) who would you get to grind it?
When I built the 383C stroker for my Pantera some years ago, I went with Ken at Oregon Cam Grinding (Cam Grinding, Camshafts, Racing & Performance Equipment). He's been racing Fords for decades and knows his stuff. Bullitt cams is also highly respected.

And now a few other thoughts...

The most important thing is to define what you want - in terms of how you will use the car. Not, "I’m shooting for a 500hp in my 383 stroker — streetble car." Be specific! How will you REALLY use the car? Do you just want a big lumpy cam and horsepower bragging rights when you go to your local Cars and Coffee? Or do you plan to turn it into a track car? And will it be used for drag, slalom or road racing? Or, will it be a street car? Torque is king on the street. Your cam grinder will take all of these considerations into account, along with your transmission and gearing, to make the best possible recommendation. But be honest about how you will actually use your car. I've known several people who've spent big bucks building loud lumpy engines with all kinds of horsepower bragging rights, but ruined the driveabilty (and enjoyment) of their cars.

So forget about horsepower, and define your goals. And don't mix parts and goals. Let your engine builder (and cam grinder) know what your goals are AND what parts you already have, then he can make the best recommendations. But first, clarify your goals...

Power (torque is king on the street.) - This is what you will feel when you take off from a red light or put your foot into it in 2nd or 3rd gear)

Idle quality - Do you want a smooth idle? Or, would you prefer a lumpy pro-street wanna-be Camaro idle that makes more noise than power? I've seen several Panteras with loud, lumpy overbuilt engines with poor idle quality that lost their drivability on the street and produced dyno results LESS than 10% better than my original 100,000 mile engine produced on the dyno. That's a fail in my book.

Drivability - If you're going to use the car primarily for street driving, will you predominantly be running errands around town, to the store, dropping off and picking up kids? Or will it be only for spirited drives through country back roads? The lightweight knife edged racing crank and Centerforce aluminum flywheel in my Pantera has impacted low speed drivability - being able to idle down the street or through a parking lot. Now I need to keep the RPM's up so the car isn't "jerky." A wider LSA might have reduced the impact on low speed driveability. I've had to learn to drive my car differently than I used to.

My 383C engine: My goal was street driveability with more power than stock. I wasn't interested in "mine's bigger than yours" horsepower claims or a lumpy pro-street idle. Driveability was key, which is why my focus was on torque - it's a street car so horsepower is arbitrary. Torque is king on the street! My Pantera spends all of it's time on the street (although I do hope to take it to a track day sometime) and only gets wound out to +6,000 RPM when I leave the metering lights (almost every time! ) to get on the freeway. My goals were 390-420 ft.lbs of torque from 2500-5500 rpm. The horsepower is whatever it is. But this is the RPM range where the engine lives 99.9% of the time, and most of that is at or under 3500 RPM.

351C guru Dan Jones on the Cleveland Engine Forums and Pantera forums recommended the following specs for my engine:
228/232 degrees duration @ 0.050" lift (280/284 @ 0.006")
0.588"/0.588" lift
108 LSA
68 degrees overlap
installed in the engine on a 104 intake centerline

I let Ken at Oregon Cams know how I planned to use the car and he liked the above specs, but recommended widening the LSA to 110 to improve the vacuum signal, smooth the idle a bit and broaden the torque curve. The 108 LSA requires an efficient exhaust to avoid bleeding off static compression, but I'm using stock Ansa Pantera mufflers which are very restrictive - dyno proven to rob the engine of 50 hp.

My 351C is stroked to 383 with a Scat forged rotating assembly with lightweight forged crank, forged rods, forged dished pistons (Probe). I'm using Ford Motorsport Early Block Hydraulic Roller Lifters, stock ratio (1.73) Scorpion roller rocker arms, Edelbrock Aluminum heads (ported + larger valves), stock volume oil pump, Weiand Xcelerator 2v single plane intake manifold, Holley 670 Avenger (probably too small for the engine, but can easily be changed later), Mallory Unilite distributor with a Pantera Electronics ignition. Again, my goal was street driveability with more power than stock. I wasn't interested in "mine's bigger than yours" horsepower claims. My machine shop estimates horsepower easily in the 400-450 range with this combination. I'll know for sure once when I dyno it after rebuilding it again (swallowed the intake stud which ended up in the #8 cylinder).

Anyway, focus on goals rather than parts. Let your engine builder (cam grinder) know what parts you have, and let him/her recommend the best combination of parts within your budget.

________________________
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Last edited by Garth66; 04-19-2019 at 04:07 PM.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-23-2019, 09:59 PM
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Mike, is this a drag race only deal ? If so, that might change what you need. I'm not sure WHERE Randy got the 114 idea, I might have suggested EVEN MORE. No, I am not George, but I wonder if maybe GP doesn't care what Randy thinks either. On the Clevelands I have delt with, we had much better results with 112 spreads, OR WIDER. Keep in mind there is alot more to it then just lobe separation, or even opening and closing points. Lobe profile matters just as much, maybe more. LSG
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