Bolt in roll cage? - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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Bolt in roll cage?

Has anyone tried installing a bolt in roll cage?
Any recommendations?
I found this one:
http://www.mustangsunlimited.com/Mus...r-3500-lbs.axd

Yes, I plan to install 5 point harness and racing seats.
But I want to be sure I can move the seat back far enough to be comfortable.

And about racing seats.
Any recommendations for a 6’4” driver?
Sure wish I could sit in one before buying.

1970 Mustang coupe
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 09:17 PM
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This is what happens when you actually need a roll cage and have a bolt in. Notice the pics of the car upside down and you can see the cage sticking through the floor. Not a fan....


https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...mustang-wrecks
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 09:58 PM
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You mean a roll bar and not a roll cage. If you just want the 5 point belts you don't need a roll bar, but if you are going to really USE 5-point belts than you DO need a roll bar. :-)

If I was going to bolt it in it would be on to reinforcement plates welded to the floor, wheel tub and roof inner structure and secured with oversized flange-head bolts and lock nuts.

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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 10:21 PM
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If all youíre concerned with is cosmetics, a bolt in will be fine. It youíre looking at something functional, weld it in.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 10:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel View Post
If all you’re concerned with is cosmetics, a bolt in will be fine. It you’re looking at something functional, weld it in.
I understand.
But bolting in is something I can do myself vs finding someone who can weld it for me.

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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 10:38 PM
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I had a bolt-in roll cage fabricated using welded floor plates. We have provisions for conversion to a 5-point bar, but I don't think I'll be fast enough to legally need it.
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 10:54 PM
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Bolt in... for looks

Weld & triangulate...safety
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-19-2019, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel View Post
If all youíre concerned with is cosmetics, a bolt in will be fine. It youíre looking at something functional, weld it in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFlash View Post
I understand.
But bolting in is something I can do myself vs finding someone who can weld it for me.
Maybe just duct tape it in then if youíre doing this only based on what youíre able to do yourself, vs doing it the best way.

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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-20-2019, 01:17 AM
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tl;dr = that car didn't have a cage, it was a roll bar and under the proper rules and design you can run a bolt in cage safely.

The pics of the crash look like a roll bar and not a cage. A cage will fully encompass the cockpit with not only a rear hoop and kickers but a roof halo, A pillar bars and some sort of door bar. There would be at least six points of contact if not eight or ten. It also wasn't big enough for that weight of car. To meet SCCA or NASA regs that car would need a full cage of 1.75 x .120 DOM for the weight of the car. (Appendix I, 9.4.6 Production Roll cage)

Even with that roll bar welded in it's not likely it would have survived an endo like that. Backing plates to bottom of the structure could have helped but it looks like it was lack of overall structure and not just the uprights poking through. The entire load went to those two points on impact. In fact the off road orgs (SCORE and BITD) don't allow for welding footing plates to body steel. They have to terminate with a weld into the tube chassis or ladder type frame rail or be attached bolted through the body sheet metal to a backing plate and the area of the plates is determined by the weight of the vehicle. In SCCA you can use a bolt in cage (with backing plates) in some classes as long as it passes tech with regards to the other design considerations. That GT is one of those classes. For production car bodies the NHRA also does not allow welding to the body sheet metal. You must use 6" x 6" footers with same size backing plates bolted through. For the SCCA and local Nascar classes I've built cages for we do weld into the body sheet metal (floor) but we are bound to minimum areas on those footer plates as well as minimum thicknesses. With the Mustang mostly done I'm starting cage fab on the SCORE spec Ranger that will be bolt through at four cab points, welded to the frame in ten other places.

Here's a minimum cage diagram from the SCCA GCR for the class that GT would have run.


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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-20-2019, 06:32 AM Thread Starter
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@vegasloki thanks for the thorough explanation. Very helpful.
Yes, roll bar is what I’m looking for. Not cage.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-20-2019, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vegasloki View Post
tl;dr = that car didn't have a cage, it was a roll bar and under the proper rules and design you can run a bolt in cage safely.

The pics of the crash look like a roll bar and not a cage. A cage will fully encompass the cockpit with not only a rear hoop and kickers but a roof halo, A pillar bars and some sort of door bar. There would be at least six points of contact if not eight or ten. It also wasn't big enough for that weight of car. To meet SCCA or NASA regs that car would need a full cage of 1.75 x .120 DOM for the weight of the car. (Appendix I, 9.4.6 Production Roll cage)

Even with that roll bar welded in it's not likely it would have survived an endo like that. Backing plates to bottom of the structure could have helped but it looks like it was lack of overall structure and not just the uprights poking through. The entire load went to those two points on impact. In fact the off road orgs (SCORE and BITD) don't allow for welding footing plates to body steel. They have to terminate with a weld into the tube chassis or ladder type frame rail or be attached bolted through the body sheet metal to a backing plate and the area of the plates is determined by the weight of the vehicle. In SCCA you can use a bolt in cage (with backing plates) in some classes as long as it passes tech with regards to the other design considerations. That GT is one of those classes. For production car bodies the NHRA also does not allow welding to the body sheet metal. You must use 6" x 6" footers with same size backing plates bolted through. For the SCCA and local Nascar classes I've built cages for we do weld into the body sheet metal (floor) but we are bound to minimum areas on those footer plates as well as minimum thicknesses. With the Mustang mostly done I'm starting cage fab on the SCORE spec Ranger that will be bolt through at four cab points, welded to the frame in ten other places.

Here's a minimum cage diagram from the SCCA GCR for the class that GT would have run.

I know the difference between a rollbar and a cage. I could also read between the lines so far what the OP is trying to do

Still not a fan.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-20-2019, 02:52 PM
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Bolt in bars are just a false sense of security. Jherrod's method is the best way to go if being able to remove the bar is required.

For not much more than the $650 they want for that bar, you can buy a CE 8 point kit and have a local fabricator that does this type of work weld it in. It'll stiffen the car and provide real protection. If you don't want the door bars, then don't use them. You also need to set up the main hoop position to the driver, as the bar, belts and seat have to be positioned specifically for you.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/c.../model/mustang

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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-20-2019, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFlash View Post
thanks for the thorough explanation. Very helpful.
Yes, roll bar is what Iím looking for. Not cage.
You're welcome. The Autopower line you're looking at is what those I've seen doing sports car track day cars or lower cost race cars were doing. I'd still use backing plates and if possible get the model with the single bar forward on the driver side. That makes it more of a pain but having at least kickers on both sides will help if the bar wants to fold forward.

I'm as tall as you but I can't offer anything on the seats for a car that's going to be driven on the street too. Our mounting was different, the seats had restrictive head containment features, features and an application not at all for the street. Trying them is difficult for most. Around here when the big off road races come through at tech there are plenty of vendors a few of which have the various seats they offer on display to sit and try. I bought my first couple of seats sight unseen based on what others were using at the track. If they have SCCA or NASA events in your area you can swing by and check out what others are using. If you go to an NHRA event and stop at the Sparco/Mastercraft truck in the fan zone they usually have a few seats out to try plus helmets, suits, shoes, head and neck restraints, pretty much everything.

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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-20-2019, 04:03 PM
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WOW, the price on those has really gone up!
Just call it a harness bar to keep the high horse brigade in check. Everyone pulls out those Mustang pics when a bolt-in bar is mentioned but in that extreme case a double plate welded in those same floor spots would not have helped in my mind. Maybe self-tappers with it atop the torque box though.
For anything more than a harness bar I would want it on the torque box and the legs back down to the frame rails, not the wheel wells. jherrud has a good idea going on with the hard points


I couldn't swipe this pic, https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...d-in-bars.html
There are many more helpful examples of both bolt-in and bolt together options, its all about execution.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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The autopower kit will meet my requirements and seems like the best choice for me.
Yes, welded mounting plates would be a good idea. And I may consider adding side bars.
I’ll lookup one of the local off-road builders to see what they can offer for comparison.
Thanks

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