Looking for 20+ More HP - Page 3 - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #31 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 09:57 PM
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Iím guessing moving the battery to the trunk wonít help...
depends on where you want to go fast


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post #32 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 10:44 PM
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For what you're looking to do I think a custom cam would be the surest route.
I don't get the whole "you need a custom cam" advice that gets barfed all over this forum. You don't need a $600 custom cam for a generic 300rwhp 302 that has been built a million times already. It's not rocket science.

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post #33 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 10:53 PM
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I don't get the whole "you need a custom cam" advice that gets barfed all over this forum. You don't need a $600 custom cam for a generic 300rwhp 302 that has been built a million times already. It's not rocket science.
Actually, that's not true. A custom ground camshaft only costs a few bucks more than an off the shelf grind. And if all you want is a generic camshaft for your generic engine, go for it. Sometimes folks get lucky and the catalog grind is the right pick. But for those that are looking to dial in their combination, a call to the cam company can be worth 20 or 30 hp.

It's the same argument against spending the time to degree a camshaft. However, for some, close enough isn't. Those are the same folks winning races, getting better fuel economy and have happier running engines.

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post #34 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 11:01 PM
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Until I see dyno or drag results this is just bench racing. Who has switched from a properly chosen off-the-shelf cam to a custom and gained proven power? Don't be shy, let's see the before and after. Since only a small percentage if this forum even dynos their car or races I doubt you can show me this alleged 30hp phone call.

The people I know who win races don't need a wine & cheese camshaft to do it.

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post #35 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 11:02 PM
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Until I see dyno or drag results this is just bench racing. Who has switched from a properly chosen off-the-shelf cam to a custom and gained proven power? Don't be shy, let's see the before and after. Since only a small percentage if this forum even dynos their car or races I doubt you can show me this alleged 30hp phone call.

The people I know who win races don't need a wine & cheese camshaft to do it.

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post #36 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 11:11 PM
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I'm not a fan of chasing dyono numbers, as they're not really indicative of performance, but you may be able to make up 20hp in tuning. Everyone is focused on the carb, which is likely too large but that won't hurt your peak power too much. I'd look more at your timing......



To elaborate, a properly tuned carb that's too large vs a smaller carb that may better matched to your combo will likely not change your peak hp much, if any. The real important thing here is that peak horsepower isn't the key to performance. Do you want to be a bench racer that can show a dyno number, or have a car that runs well? A smaller carb may, or may not, show a higher peak number on a dyno, but it will increase your average horspeer number in your useable rpm range. Chasing a peak horsepower number for a dyno is bench racing. Making the most average horsepower is for performance.
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post #37 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jdub View Post
I don't get the whole "you need a custom cam" advice that gets barfed all over this forum. You don't need a $600 custom cam for a generic 300rwhp 302 that has been built a million times already. It's not rocket science.
If you're paying $600 for a custom cam, you payed too much.
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post #38 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jdub View Post
Until I see dyno or drag results this is just bench racing. Who has switched from a properly chosen off-the-shelf cam to a custom and gained proven power? Don't be shy, let's see the before and after. Since only a small percentage if this forum even dynos their car or races I doubt you can show me this alleged 30hp phone call.

The people I know who win races don't need a wine & cheese camshaft to do it.

Really? You've just changed your argument with "properly chosen off-the-shelf cam," but it may not exist in the first place. A call to the cam company, as I mentioned, would answer that question in less than 10 minutes.

And believe it or not, there is more to life (and Mustangs) beyond the walls of this forum. This is a tiny sampling. :-)
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post #39 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 11:27 PM
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Custom cams aren't much more than an off the shelf and its designed by a professional who makes a living doing this who gathers all the details of your car and provides a product perfectly matched to the application. Race winners will always spend an extra $50 for an edge. I went this route after countless hours of reading and seeing the gains in power and driveability that people achieved by going custom. I have yet to see one person say, "that was a waste of my money".
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post #40 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jdub View Post
Until I see dyno or drag results this is just bench racing. Who has switched from a properly chosen off-the-shelf cam to a custom and gained proven power? Don't be shy, let's see the before and after. Since only a small percentage if this forum even dynos their car or races I doubt you can show me this alleged 30hp phone call.

The people I know who win races don't need a wine & cheese camshaft to do it.
You just got the VB data base error double post didn't you ? happened to me earlier today. But that's a whole nother thread I guess


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post #41 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 11:51 PM Thread Starter
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Lots of good info and it is causing my google machine to go into overdrive. All the different perspectives are greatly appreciated. To answer the dyno #'s question presented earlier - yeah, I'd like to see 300+ but equally important is performance driving and i'm about 90% of the way there. The dyno was good to show me I have a potential issue at higher RPMs so that is helpfull. I feel that "stutter" or loss of power briefly through all 1/2 gears at that RPM range. 3rd/4th - not so much since I'm not in spot to go WOT high RPM.

Here is what I'm taking away thus far to improve performance (scavenge 20HP):

- CARB tuning/timing
- CAM......CAM......CAM
- Valve float (maybe)
- some intake talk

Need to figure out engine compression - trying to sort out piston dome volume. Found my old "build receipt" from 2007 when I had the 302 rebuilt. Lucky to have found this receipt - although that is all it is - a hand written receipt of what was put in there. So key point I'm trying to google and figure out is the piston dome volume. Receipt says: "32280 - engine kit inlcludes KB pistons/molly rings/all <non readable>". Been googling the heck out of that to determine the pistons but no luck thus far. If anyone can help with that mystery - that would be awesome. Looks like i decided to keep my rods and get them reconditioned. "bore and hone with deck plate" - good to know I guess.

Also still frustrated I didn't get an AFR from my Dyno however I'm leaning towards welding in an O2 bung and putting a gauge to it. More to follow on that.

By the way - thanks for all the responses! Great reading and has me googling and researching. Spent some time getting smarter on all the numbers thrown around on CAM cards since CAM discussion is hot topic on this thread.

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post #42 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 01:02 AM
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Pistons are important, but you're not going to 'gain power' by changing pistons. So long as they're strong enough to take what your engine can dish out, and they offer an appropriate compression ratio, then don't mess with 'em.

You can argue that well-designed lightweight pistons that match your heads can deliver more power, but there are much better ways to chase a few horsepower. This is something you worry about when you put in a new crank and rods, or build a new motor - not something you mess with if it's running as well as yours does.

I'm betting these are the ubiquitous Keith Black flattops with some little eyebrows for valve relief. +6CC or so to volume, but they should give you good quench and adequate valve clearance, so they're not a bad choice.

A tailpipe sniffer really isn't that handy for telling you what's going on in the engine, by the way, so don't feel too cheated. They're useful for reducing emissions and tuning for economy, but they won't do much for chasing power. You could be blowing a lot of unburnt fuel down the header along with a lot of air, and continuing to burn in the exhaust. Sniffer might say "No problem!" but your O2 bung in the header would know better. (obviously, your engine is not doing this; I'm just creating a fictional example here.)

Anyway, all this to say first: if you really want to make a substantial power improvement, you've got to do it with breathing. Heads, cam. You already have an excellent way to get air in, and exhaust out, so don't mess with those.

The only other way you could significantly increase actual power would not raise your horsepower number. Stroking your engine would gain you a lot of torque, and lower the RPMs that you make peak power at. This would help your lifters (because they don't have to deal with the higher RPMs), and decrease any mixing problems you're having on the bottom end with your big 750. While it will usually hurt your mileage a bit (especially if you can't keep your foot out of it!) running a 331 or 347 will roast tires and create a lot more power under the torque and horsepower peaks. If changing the stroke is the only thing you do, it typically won't raise peak horsepower, but you'll wind up with a lot more average horsepower.
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post #43 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 02:20 AM
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Also still frustrated I didn't get an AFR from my Dyno however I'm leaning towards welding in an O2 bung and putting a gauge to it. More to follow on that.
That would honestly be your best bet. Get your carb dialed in as best you can with AFR gauge feedback, then if possible have it fine tuned on the dyno. You'll be paying by the hour at that point; the less time to nail it down, the less it costs you.
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post #44 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 07:27 AM
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I agree with reqards to chasing numbers on a dyno. But what dyno sessions provide is info that would take a week two or longer to figure out by an experienced tech sitting behind the wheel and at best may get 90% on a non previous tuned engine. In general there is a relationship between AFR and timing. Advancing timing leans the AFR and Retarding timing pushes for a richer condition. So with AFR changes comes timing adjustments. A trained dyno operator roughly knows where initial timing specs are to start out with too. A good dyno operator is way worth it IMO.
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post #45 of 91 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 08:41 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Grimbrand View Post
.........Sniffer might say "No problem!" but your O2 bung in the header would know better
I'm sorry but that sentence made me crack up. Reads funny. Definitely a correlation between your sniffer and your bung in the HEADer. Need to make sure they are sync'd to play it safe before going on a long road trip.

[end]juvenile humor[/end]
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