Theoretical discussion: Fender braces - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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Theoretical discussion: Fender braces

Has anyone ever seen something similar for a classic mustang? This is on a Miata, and I really don't know how effective they are in that application. The idea is to tie the top of the shock tower to a solid mounting point on the unibody near the frame rail. They don't come stock on a Miata, but some people swear by them...and there ARE factory uses of this type of brace in the FRS/BRZ, so Toyota and Subaru engineers saw some value in tying this area together in their flagship sports car(not that the BRZ or FRS are known for power...but they are known for handling). Obviously if this idea were adapted to a classic mustang the mounting points would be different(since the door hinges are NOT a solid mounting point in these cars) possibly something like the outer shock tower to the torque box area to the cowl tank area. Seems like these would prevent more flex mainly under braking and/or heavy acceleration...similar to subframe connectors. Not sure if/how effective they would be, but extra chassis bracing couldn't hurt(if hidden under the fender). Miata guys like them...but that is no surprise, since it reduces convertible cowl shake and not all of them have hardtops to help with that issue.
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 11:57 PM
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well....it can't hurt. I think anything to stiffen the chassis is a good thing.
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 05:44 AM
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Boss 429 cars had under fender reinforcements to help with the extra weight of the engine and the modified shock towers. If one were to copy this and add additional reinforcements in the cowl area sides to help direct the load to the A pillar / rocker area (much like the Miata reinforcement) it would help.


[ATTACH][/ATTACH]
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 06:04 AM
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Several years ago there was a company called "Julians" that built a '65 or '66 mustang, and used a fabricated tubular frame work in that area of the cowl as well as under the dash and firewall. I used to have the site bookmarked, but the owners apparently took it down.

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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 06:18 AM
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That would have been a better solution for the 65's and 66's convertibles instead of adding the tubular bars in the engine compartment.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j persons View Post
Several years ago there was a company called "Julians" that built a '65 or '66 mustang, and used a fabricated tubular frame work in that area of the cowl as well as under the dash and firewall. I used to have the site bookmarked, but the owners apparently took it down.
I followed something similar when I did the chassis for my build. It was interesting to attempt to hide all the extra supports (this was done to a '70 Sportsroof) under all the stock appearing sheet metal.


I installed a 1" x 1.5" x .120" tube across the firewall with threaded bungs for the export brace

Several pieces of 1" square .120" wall tube to the A pillar (which extends up inside beside the windshield) and down to the rocker


Then attaching the tubes in the cowl to the shock towers, which I am going to cover with sheet metal at some point.
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File Type: jpg Fire Wall Support.jpg (155.2 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg Cowl Brace.jpg (94.9 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg Fender Side Bracing.jpg (337.7 KB, 14 views)

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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 02:23 PM
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Mustangs To Fear has a solution https://shop.mustangstofear.com/inde...roducts_id=415

Coyote build in 65 GT Fastback in body work https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/b...e-powered.html and on Facebook @65gtmustang
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 03:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latoracing View Post
I followed something similar when I did the chassis for my build. It was interesting to attempt to hide all the extra supports (this was done to a '70 Sportsroof) under all the stock appearing sheet metal.


I installed a 1" x 1.5" x .120" tube across the firewall with threaded bungs for the export brace

Several pieces of 1" square .120" wall tube to the A pillar (which extends up inside beside the windshield) and down to the rocker


Then attaching the tubes in the cowl to the shock towers, which I am going to cover with sheet metal at some point.
Very nice work. I am mainly interested in stiffening for handling(no real interest in drag racing any more) did you notice a difference in the curves? This is something I may do when I replace my cowl, or some version thereof since it looks to be just a few hours of fab and fairly cheap material-wise. Not sure how possible it would be for me to tie into the A pillar though since when I wont want to have to remove my interior if I dont have to.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wicked93gs View Post
Very nice work. I am mainly interested in stiffening for handling(no real interest in drag racing any more) did you notice a difference in the curves? This is something I may do when I replace my cowl, or some version thereof since it looks to be just a few hours of fab and fairly cheap material-wise. Not sure how possible it would be for me to tie into the A pillar though since when I wont want to have to remove my interior if I dont have to.
As this is an ongoing LONGTERM build, its still on the chassis table. No idea on how it handles yet. The idea of having a slightly updated T/A themed autocross car, the intention is to handle curves. Earlier cars would be much easier to do the cowl to A pillar tie ins as they don't have that extra bubble on the side of the cowl like 69-70s. I was there when I replaced my cowl, so why not. I kept the heater which hindered tie-ins to the cage but the front down bars are tied into the A pillars and roof. I also installed convertible inner rockers along with the one piece seat riser and going to incorporate the lower portions (heavily modified though) to increase torsional rigidity.

The cowl / firewall bar and A pillar tie ins could be accomplished without removing the cowl. Wouldn't be easy to seal but shouldn't be too awfully difficult to install.

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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 05:02 PM
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The thing I don't like about the MTF brace is that it ties into a fairly flat portion of the firewall. A "dead node" in roll bar parlance. It would be much stronger/stiffer if it tied into the corner of the cowl/firewall junction like Lato and the factory 429 did. The cowl side is already stronger on the 69-70 with that added bulged panel.

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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 06:42 PM
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A picture I saved from someone working on what appears to be maybe a '66? But it caught my eye as interesting and quite solid looking. I do have a limit of how much overkill I'm willing to go. Nice looking stuff here but just over that limit of what I want to get into. Plus the added weight has little appeal to me on my non-race car that is already sporting more racy bits than it seriously ought to. And is heavier than I would like.
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 07:43 PM
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A picture I saved from someone working on what appears to be maybe a '66? But it caught my eye as interesting and quite solid looking. I do have a limit of how much overkill I'm willing to go. Nice looking stuff here but just over that limit of what I want to get into. Plus the added weight has little appeal to me on my non-race car that is already sporting more racy bits than it seriously ought to. And is heavier than I would like.
Not bad, though there appears to be a few tubes of questionable benefit. The weight penalty would be lessened if these were of 1/16" wall instead of 1/8". The better weight/benefit area will still be bridging the cockpit/door opening area: torque boxes, 'vert rockers, SFC, roll cage that sort of thing.

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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 10:46 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stephen_wilson View Post
Not bad, though there appears to be a few tubes of questionable benefit. The weight penalty would be lessened if these were of 1/16" wall instead of 1/8". The better weight/benefit area will still be bridging the cockpit/door opening area: torque boxes, 'vert rockers, SFC, roll cage that sort of thing.
For myself, I just don't want a roll cage...or rather, I prefer to retain a stock interior, so its a matter of hidden chassis stiffening...something like these under-fender braces(though that 66 doesn't have a diagonal tying the upper shock tower to the lower rocker) along with a trunk divider, SFC, etc...but in the end it remains a street car, a driver. Weight is a factor too...I don't want to add too much weight either. I think there is a happy middle ground for a car that wont be used for any actual racing except maybe a road course track day once a year or so
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 08:17 AM
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For myself, I just don't want a roll cage...or rather, I prefer to retain a stock interior, so its a matter of hidden chassis stiffening...something like these under-fender braces(though that 66 doesn't have a diagonal tying the upper shock tower to the lower rocker) along with a trunk divider, SFC, etc...but in the end it remains a street car, a driver. Weight is a factor too...I don't want to add too much weight either. I think there is a happy middle ground for a car that wont be used for any actual racing except maybe a road course track day once a year or so
I completely agree, I don't want a roll cage either.

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