Economics of a build (engine choices) - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
cgc
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Economics of a build (engine choices)

Let me start off stating that I’m working on laying out a game plan for what I’m wanting to build and do not currently have a car in the works. I was looking at 69 sport roof, but backed off of it for a couple of reasons…mainly cause I was trying to make THAT car fit my plans rather than having my plan make the car (if that makes sense).

Project goal:
Probably building a 69 Boss 302 Tribute car.
I’d like aprox 500 rwhp that is not a problem to drive to work a couple of times a week, able to do a long road trip (hot rod power tour?), and handles pretty well.
It will be a weekend warrior and will probably never see a race track of any time…purely my entertainment, project for me and my kids and some mountain drives.
The HP number is just a goal because I know my engine options I'm looking at (getting to that) both have the potential to hit that number or close to it and still be “streetable”.
I will also have a 6 speed manual transmission along with this.

Currently I’m going back and forth concerning the engine.

Option #1:
Coyote Swap w\ MT-82
I currently daily drive a 2011 Mustang GT with the Coyote engine and 6 spd transmission and I was considering using this car as a donor.
I've had an 01, 03 Cobra along with my current 5.0 and really like the power\efficiency of the mod motors.
I know a good chunk of the swap goes to the purchase of the motor, but I also know there is a good bit of fab work that needs to be done to get it to fit\run.

Option #2
351w Stroker (408) and T-56 Transmission.
I like the idea of being able to basically drop the motor in and go without having to do a bunch of fab work and keeping the stock suspension (although it will be upgraded).
I’d be a liar if I said I didn’t like the sound of a nice cam thumping around in there as well without having to mess with a tuned “ghost cam”.



I know projects like this cost money…I get it…I’ve had 6 mustangs and know if you play you pay. But, that doesn’t mean I want to be frivolous with the money.

That all being said. For those of you who may have been down the road and contemplated either a stroked 351w stroker or a Coyote, why did you choose the way you did? Which one actually cost more money to build (minus the engine\trans for the Coyote)? I’m assuming at this point from the high level over view math I’ve done, the Coyote swap will be more expensive even with the motor and transmission already in hand…but I’m curious for constructive feedback or conformation to my thoughts.
I know people have their preferences, but I’m looking for some black and white money feedback.

I’ll be selling the 2011 GT I have either as a roller or a complete car to invest back into the 69. Obviously if I sell a complete car, I’ll get more money out of the 11. If I use the 11 as a donor, I’ll already have the motor and transmission (as well as some other parts I’ll pull off) but get a lot less money to put back into the project.

I apologize for being so long winded and hopefully my ramblings make sense.
Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 04:13 PM
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Normally I'm a fan of keeping the shock towers, however you already have a Coyote and you should be able to get some money out of the 2011 shell. I'd say though that if you are going to do the Coyote, do the front suspension right. Don't get some basic Mustang II suspension that'd be better off on a 1932 Model-A project.

I think if you're putting it as a Coyote swap needs "a good bit of fab work" you might not be ready for this project yet. Do some research on your own with Google before yanking the Coyote out of the 2011.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 04:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdub View Post
Normally I'm a fan of keeping the shock towers, however you already have a Coyote and you should be able to get some money out of the 2011 shell. I'd say though that if you are going to do the Coyote, do the front suspension right. Don't get some basic Mustang II suspension that'd be better off on a 1932 Model-A project.

I think if you're putting it as a Coyote swap needs "a good bit of fab work" you might not be ready for this project yet. Do some research on your own with Google before yanking the Coyote out of the 2011.

To clarify, when I say "good bit of fab work" I mean in comparison in a 351w.
I've been googling and reading a lot of posts from here as well as other sites so I'm familiar with most of the potential setups with a Coyote swap. I apologize if you took my wording as over dramatics.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 05:14 PM
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Okay, so you lead off with the "economics" of doing one vs the other.

A 408 + T56 is probably going to set you back $11k or so, but would be a near direct bolt in.

Yanking the engine and transmission out the the '11 will probably cost you $10k in value and lead to a ton of fabrication ($$$).
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 06:26 PM
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I would go 408w.....but if you go Coyote Swap I believe that "mustangs to fear" has a kit.

the most fun out of a street engine is wide powerband and a snappy throttle response rather than a dyno number at 6500 RPM. The 408W has been well documented as to what you can get out of it and it is good.

Last edited by Tom65; 07-22-2019 at 06:48 PM.
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 06:53 PM
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An FE with aluminum heads, intake and water pump … it fits, it's original, it has enough torque to pull out tree stumps.
If I was starting from scratch I might get a 351w. I don't know about 500 rwhp, but it would have enough to burn the tires from here to the next county.
Between the FE and the Coyote it would be a no-brainer for me. With the Coyote you are going true resto-mod, so think about all the other upgrades: suspension, steering, brakes, chassis, wiring, rear, etc. It could get very expensive very quick.
Just my view; your view is the only one that counts. We all like something different.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 08:36 PM
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500HP from a 351w? Go turbo....it will get you there on a stock block...depending on how you do it, it will be cheaper and far more streetabke than a 408
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 09:27 PM
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500hp 351w:

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/buil...d-351-windsor/

If I had the room of a '69 I might find a 5.8L out of an F250, pop in a $50 used F-Cam and run an 88mm turbo.

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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 09:59 PM
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I'm usually not a fan of shock tower carnage. But a Coyote 302 in a Boss 302 tribute would be.... Boss and a 302!

Having stuffed Chebby small blocks into late seventies and early eighties Toyota trucks in a past life, the little things that you can't foresee, at least the first time, will equal or surpass the amount you spend on the "conversion" items.

cgc, seems like this isn't your first rodeo. So, yea, usual stuff!

I think if you settled for a Pinto front suspension you would be disappointed.

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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 10:02 PM
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I'm in the process of building a 408. I went this route for two reasons. First I didn't want the expense of cutting out the shock towers and replacing the suspension and steering. The second reason is because I don't have a good feel for the computerized electronics. I'm using the Scat 1-47353BI rotation assembly, AFR 185cc SBF Renegade heads and a Lunati Voodoo 20350711 cam with scorpion rockers. Everything is new and so far I have $7600 into the engine. I still need a carb, distributor and headers. The block I got was out of an F-250 which has stronger rods. A supercharged stock 351 would have been cheaper and faster. Good luck which ever way you go
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Last edited by Fastback Steve; 07-22-2019 at 10:09 PM.
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-23-2019, 05:43 PM
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If you go Coyote, sell your '11 and pick up a used '11 - '14 F150 coyote. All said and done it will be within 20hp of a Mustang Coyote. Plenty of documentation on this on the web over the diff between the two engines. One can be had for around $3000 with less than 40k miles. Go with a beefed up T5 or T56 and be done with that side of things.

As far as fab goes, it all depends on the front suspension you choose. AJE has a bolt in K member that will allow you to bolt in a Coyote with only notching the shock towers and uses a strut based suspension. Their kit is the cheapest way to get a Coyote into a 69-70 that I've seen. There are plenty of more expensive options, Heidts, Griggs, Detroit Speed, etc...it will all depend on how you intend to use the car. If a good cruiser with good handling is all you want, go with the AJE or Mustangs to Fear Mustang II based kit.

I decided to use the MTF front suspension for a number of reasons.

1) Excellent Customer service and product
2) Moderate price zone
3) Improved handling over stock (I will not be racing my car)
4) Off the shelf Rack and pinion steering
5) Clean look of no shock towers.

The swap can be done on a decent, not too scary budget but I recommend making a spreadsheet to plan it all out. Who has the best prices and rewards programs to help save money.

In the end I am extremely happy I went with the Coyote. The power, sound, fuel mileage and reliability exceeded my expectations.


Hope this helps!
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5.0L Coyote swap
Promotion T5 Trans
9" w/ 3.91 Eaton TruTrac
Mustangs to Fear IFS
TCI 4-link Rear Susp
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 07-24-2019, 04:32 AM
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With that wished hp level for the street, you may take a look at the 460" smallblock from Ford Performance. You could probably even copy it using Cleveland style heads. With some paint it would look "stock" vintage Boss. Those engines are rated 575 HP at 5500 rpm and also 575 TQ.
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