Lost, Confused, Frustrated New member...70 Mach 1 - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-28-2019, 03:12 PM Thread Starter
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Lost, Confused, Frustrated New member...70 Mach 1

Cannot see where to post. Perhaps the free membership stops me from being able to post in the main group.

I'm Rick. That's about all I have.

I was trying to get to the what did you do today on your Mustang? I think I'm in new subscriptions.
I probably need help on figuring out how it works.

It would be helpful to have some way to understand how to post. By having some instructions somewhere. I can not find them is all, I'm sure.

What really hurts my back is to see all the dead-end links still sitting here after 8 years. Ouch. What a time wasting subterfuge.

Okay, I will probably get kicked out for being a free member that is asking too many questions now. I suppose free members have limits.

I had a question about buying two different heads from eBay. Thought I was buying a set. Who sells heads from two different cars like they are a pair? I mean GEEZ. What a trixter.

$600 out of pocket and I really wanted to get these 4V 1970 heads to work on my engine. But they've been shaved or ground .020. I read somewhere in which that changes the Compression. Nothing in the description about someone having shaved these heads. Wow. I'm old and slow but I'm not stupid. I just got ripped a good one I think.

Perhaps some member here will give me a leg up on what they advise?

Today I got the heads in and found out they are not one of two but just two different heads which have been ground down to .020. They are 70 heads I think, Maybe I can create a case at eBay and get them to step in and refund the 600 dollars. Not as described!

Seems a matched set is what I would want. Right? 4V 351 Cleveland Heads. I've got 2v on the heads on the engine that came with the car, yet it is not a #'s matching. I"m unsure how much it would cost to get these built, and or what to put in them.

And the 2v shows a bump in front 2V. I read where that means open chamber heads! Worthless I have read. Many articles. That is why I'm taking the intake off the engine, which is an Edelbrock Performer 351 designed for these exact 2V heads. 4bbl intake... Use it I wonder or sell or trade it away. I do have a 4V intake from eBay, dated 1970. And now a mix-matched set of 4V heads. That probably need about a thousand dollars worth of valves and such.

So this engine would be a 2V set up maybe out of a later car. Not sure. It might be a worthless rebuild in my opinion. All it needs is a carb and dist. to start up. I would need an engine stand to even hear it. I have nothing for it to go into to determine performance.

The guy I bought it from fed me some bull= about it being a solid built engine with more performance on the lower end, now. hmmm. Also, he said that the guy put in the next size came above stock? What does that even mean? one duration degree? Nothing I'm sure. It might as well be a stock cam if it is one size larger. Tear it down and rebuild to suit? Or use it?

I probably need to tear the motor down to the block just to know what's going on and start over from scratch.

So it is why I have been looking for 4V heads to make it the engine that went with my mach 1 from the factory specs. Isn't that what I need to do? ha. It's a guaranteed 300 hp. Or maybe I should make a street rod that has some performance and forget about what 2V or 4V heads and what intake goes where. Right?

Anyone wanting a project? I apologize friends. My last restoration was a 56 Chevy. @ith no issues. But now that I've started on this 70 mustang I'm finding everything to be wrong. Hard to find parts. And what I have is all the wrong pieces to an apparently very difficult project starting out. In it for $5k so far.

Sorry to sound so negative. It's just nothing seems to be as it really is. I think my problem is I don't have a blueprint of where I want this car to go. I cannot afford it to be a high-performance resto-mod.
But I cannot stand to make it a factory 70 car once more. Or original. Too much trouble.
Any suggestions on what you might do with such.

Remember, I have a body with suspension. New front clip and suspension. Have rear end, all shocks and leaf springs. All in good rubber replaced order. And the engine that didn't come out of this car as this cars Marti report lists a 351C. M code 4v. 4speed, shaker hood. Calypso orange. No steering, no pedals, no seats, no glass, no hood, no fenders. Has one door. And half the mach 1 trim that I need.

I've got the body almost ready to epoxy seal a second time. All the work has been done as far as metal work. I need to buy two fenders a drivers door and a hood. I think the motor is some 2V set up that the guy before me got from someone and was going to put it in this car. I just cannot put a 4v intake in with 2v heads after reading how the ports won't even line up right.

Unless the Edlebrok remanufactured the intake to fit the 2V heads. But there would only be about 15 hp added from a lightweight intake with a 4bbl sitting on it. Maybe it would be able to put out 300hp? Not knowing. Anyone?

Are there any great places to buy parts? Where to get heads done? What would they need to go back to a stock 4V head.

Thanks for your time. God bless our Souls. Hope someone can spare a moment and give me a foot hold here.

Thank you!~
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-28-2019, 03:48 PM
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So did you buy 2 4V Cleveland heads or not?


Maybe this will help.


https://www.diyford.com/351-clevelan...ry-iron-heads/


There are aftermarket 4 barrel intakes for 2V Heads. I had the Edelbock torker(single plane) and sold mine to somebody since I'm planning to get a set of closed chamber 2V heads(Australian) and I didn't want the old intake. It was in good shape though.


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Last edited by macstang; 06-28-2019 at 03:53 PM.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-28-2019, 11:51 PM
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Hi, welcome to VMF, sorry to hear you are having so many issues.

I am not quite sure I follow what is goin on with the heads you bought off eBay. How are they different? Different casting numbers? Or completely different models?

How do you know they were shaved 20 thousands? If true you might have to shave the intake to match.

I would first contact the seller if they were misrepresented. If they canít resolve the issue, contact eBay.

As for parts. NPD is the best choice in most cases. Fantastic service, and the largest select of in stock parts.

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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 70mach1rb View Post
I had a question about buying two different heads from eBay. Thought I was buying a set. Who sells heads from two different cars like they are a pair? I mean GEEZ. What a trixter.

$600 out of pocket and I really wanted to get these 4V 1970 heads to work on my engine. But they've been shaved or ground .020. I read somewhere in which that changes the Compression. Nothing in the description about someone having shaved these heads. Wow. I'm old and slow but I'm not stupid. I just got ripped a good one I think.

Perhaps some member here will give me a leg up on what they advise?

Today I got the heads in and found out they are not one of two but just two different heads which have been ground down to .020. They are 70 heads I think, Maybe I can create a case at eBay and get them to step in and refund the 600 dollars. Not as described!

Seems a matched set is what I would want. Right? 4V 351 Cleveland Heads. I've got 2v on the heads on the engine that came with the car, yet it is not a #'s matching. I"m unsure how much it would cost to get these built, and or what to put in them.

Your thread is all over the place but I'll try to start here.


What makes you think these heads are not a "matched pair" and came off of 2 different cars? Ford certainly didn't "match" the heads to the car.
Do you know anything about Ford's engineering numbers that are cast into each and every head? Do you know anything about "date codes" that are cast into every head?

How do you know that the heads have been "shaved" .020"? Yes, this does raise compression but what's wrong with that?


If your '70 Mach 1 is an M code car then it came with a 351 4V Cleveland engine. Who put the 351C 2V heads on it? And all US made 351C 2V heads have open chambers. Only the Australians had 302C 2V closed chamber heads. Yes, a 302C, not a 351C.

Last edited by awhtx; 06-29-2019 at 08:27 AM.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 10:17 AM
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Welcome to VMF. As far as where to post your questions go to the main page & click on forums at the top of the page, then scroll down & pick the appropriate sub forum you think your questions relate to. Most will go in the questions will go in the Vintage Mustang Forum section.

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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 08:40 PM
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Whew!
Welcome to VMF
Be specific with concerns and descriptions and there is definitely someone on here that can help you figure out your situation....we've all been there...

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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 09:13 AM Thread Starter
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HI.

I'm going to have to just talk about one thing at a time I think. Sorry fellows that I covered so many topics first post out of the gate. I figured most will not care who I am or where I come from for the introductory post. So I will just reply here with the first reply questions.

The engine came with the car that I purchased. Not in it but with it. It came with the intake for a 2V head seat up, so yes it came with 2v heads. Not sure about the motor or what it is actually. I assumed it was a Cleveland motor. Don't know. But the heads are different than numbers stamped on motor. The parts I've put on it so far have fit a 351 Cleveland engine.

Thank you for the article info url. I did read this article several times all the way through. Okay so just because the heads have a 2 on them with a bump. Does not mean they are always open chamber heads. The guy took these off as it was the guy before him that he got the engine from. And he said the chambers were closed.

I would have to remove the head to make sure of that fact. But I think I can use the set up as is. With 2v.

I guess I will have to pull the head to see if it is open or closed. I've heard it that they have to be open unless an Aussie head 302 head. I doubt it matters much as I just can't bring myself to use these on the mach 1. People know what to look for and will not want a 2v head!
2. People only know of what they've heard about them and are biased without ever researching the truth. like me.
3. I don't think I can have a mach 1 m factory set up that has 2v heads on it. Does not make sense and would probably lower the resale value considerably. Not sure.


My issue is I don't think I want to. I don't think it will end up with 300 hp. Which is minimum hp I would want for this car.

Somewhere along the way this car and this engine became a pair. So not sure what engine it is, where it came from or if the block was once a Cleveland and if so what year. I can find nothing on it.

Thanks for your reply on this and maybe from here I can determine what to do.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 09:23 AM Thread Starter
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Your thread is all over the place but I'll try to start here.


What makes you think these heads are not a "matched pair" and came off of 2 different cars? Ford certainly didn't "match" the heads to the car.
Do you know anything about Ford's engineering numbers that are cast into each and every head? Do you know anything about "date codes" that are cast into every head?

The heads have two different numbers on them. Also, different I think on year? I know some things about numbers and the heads I have that are 2V on my engine show the same exact number between them.

Yes, the heads do show a .20 that someone has written on the bottom of both heads. So it is why I believe these have been shaved. The issue is they now become a performance head which is not what I wanted to go back in the mach 1. I wanted factory built engine. That is what would make sense.

I'm trying to go back and make it the same set up as it describes in the marti report. Of course, I don't have matching number engine so that might negate anything to do with the set up being an original.

So if it does not matter if head numbers match? Then I will have them rebuilt and use them on my engine. I have a 4bbl intake as well.

so with these parts I now have what the car shows it had. 351 cleveland 4V set up. Thanks.

And I will list the 2v heads along with the Edelbrock intake set up on eBay.

How do you know that the heads have been "shaved" .020"? Yes, this does raise compression but what's wrong with that?


If your '70 Mach 1 is an M code car then it came with a 351 4V Cleveland engine. Who put the 351C 2V heads on it? And all US made 351C 2V heads have open chambers. Only the Australians had 302C 2V closed chamber heads. Yes, a 302C, not a 351C.


Thank you for your help in trying to clear this up for me.

Rick
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 70mach1rb View Post
I assumed it was a Cleveland motor. Don't know.
Post some photos of the front part of the block and we can tell you if it's a Windsor or Cleveland.


Quote:
I don't think I can have a mach 1 m factory set up that has 2v heads on it. Does not make sense and would probably lower the resale value considerably.
Since you don't have the original engine this won't be a "concours level" car. If I were in the market for a non-concours '70 Mach 1 I would prefer a well built engine with adjustable rockers and pushrod guideplates exactly as the heads you bought have been set up.



Quote:
I don't think it will end up with 300 hp. Which is minimum hp I would want for this car.
A 351C 4V will blow through 300 hp on the dyno without even breaking a sweat.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 01:05 AM
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First of all IF the car does not have the original engine the resale value might be lower or higher depending on what a buyer wants. I'd pay more for a 70 that has a 427 in place of the factory 351. Aussie C heads are very popular and seem to be more popular than 4V heads for street cruisers. I have had 3 351C 4V engines and prefer 351W engines with aluminum heads. Also the value of the car only matters IF you plan to sell it. IF you plan to keep it for life like me the resale value doesnt matter cause you will have the car until you die.

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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 01:08 AM
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Post some photos of the front part of the block and we can tell you if it's a Windsor or Cleveland.


Since you don't have the original engine this won't be a "concours level" car. If I were in the market for a non-concours '70 Mach 1 I would prefer a well built engine with adjustable rockers and pushrod guideplates exactly as the heads you bought have been set up.



A 351C 4V will blow through 300 hp on the dyno without even breaking a sweat.
A 351C 4V in my 66 mustang.
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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 08:01 AM
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Post some photos of the front part of the block and we can tell you if it's a Windsor or Cleveland.

Never mind. I just saw the photo in your original post and that's a Cleveland.
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 08:43 AM
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Are u building to sell or drive? I say build it to drive, and build what u got. You are going to spend big bucks on getting all the missing parts, and then body and paint work. You mentioned not having a budget for concours restoration. If not doing a concours resto, donít worry about matching #s. Your heads are date coded 1 month apart- March 18 and April 20 of 1970. Not sure of dates for block? Itís going to take time and money to finish this project. 1969/70 cars are more expensive to restore.

Is this a Craigslist car that was recently advertised in Dallas? I think I remember seeing this car recently? More pics of car and block will help. There are quite a few members here in Texas to help out.


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