First Track Day Coming & Panhard Bar Tuning - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 04:54 PM Thread Starter
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First Track Day Coming & Panhard Bar Tuning

I have my first ever track day coming up on 8/24, and have been busy dusting the cob webs off my 67 getting it ready and sorted. My car has always felt a bit unsettled/wallowy the faster I went and the harder I pushed it through a corner. After some late night reading I decided to venture building and installing a panhard bar. My employer has a metal fabrication shop that had some downtime this week so I decided to take advantage .

We just finished installing the bar this afternoon and after the first test drive it made noticeable changes in how the car responds (for the better, mostly). When I initiate a turn the car just turns; there is no wallowing and waiting for the rear end to settle into the turn. The other noticeable change was that the front end now pushes, where as prior to the panhard I had to be delicate with the throttle to keep the *** end from coming around on me. So my question is, shall I tweak the bar to force a little bit of oversteer like I am used to or relearn to drive it with more gas pedal? If I tweak the bar, what movements do what with regards to changing handling characteristics (I have up/down adjustment on both ends and can adjust bar length slightly as well)? I currently have the bar set level with the rear axle, right at the axle centerline. My "assistant" who was welding and fabbing everything has past experience dirt track racing, and kept questioning why I was setting the bar level vs angled (from my reading if you are going round and round in circles its best to load one tire more than the other).

Any assistance that you can provide with panhard bar setup, what works on your Mustang, what you have seen/heard from others, etc, would be appreciated!
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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 05:21 PM
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I would think the general consensus would be to learn to throttle the car through the turn. I have to do that myself.
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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 05:29 PM
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That's a Watts Link..... not a Panhard Bar.

Just a start. Don't know that I want to tune your car though.
I see a number of interesting details. (washers under u-bolts, lowering blocks and
some kind of link with a rod end under the leaf)
No doubt it's real interesting to drive.

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Last edited by GT289; 08-16-2019 at 05:33 PM.
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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 05:57 PM
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No doubt...if you need more than two washers, you need shorter bolts.

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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 06:31 PM
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The standard in race school and how many of us learned to race (or track day) is to get the car as generic and neutral as you can when first learning. Ditch the non stock items. Factory ride height, camber and caster and corner weights. You aren't learning to tune a car at this point. You are learning how to tune the driver. Even a poor handling car will be faster than a first time track session driver. Once you get a handle on how to drive a neutral car you can start working on tuning your car. The goal is to learn to jump into any car with a neutral setup and get as much out of it as the car is possible of giving.

Don't be this guy...

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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 08:36 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickstapler View Post
No doubt...if you need more than two washers, you need shorter bolts.
I already got an earful from my colleagues for those. 😉. Not to mention my welding vs those that weld as a profession. There is no shortage of things to poke (fun?) at on my car...
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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 08:45 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT289 View Post
That's a Watts Link..... not a Panhard Bar.

Just a start. Don't know that I want to tune your car though.
I see a number of interesting details. (washers under u-bolts, lowering blocks and
some kind of link with a rod end under the leaf)
No doubt it's real interesting to drive.

ex-Global West GM
1991-1995
Last I checked a watts link uses two rods and a wobbly bit in the middle...

Regarding the washers, the traction bar brackets would not sit flush on the shock plates, hence the washers. I should probably just weld brackets directly to the shock plates and ditch the extra bracket.

I have also installed the wedges to correct the pinion angle (lowering is a side effect).

And lastly the traction bars, well, there job is obvious and they have performed well the past 10+ years (they replaced the Shelby style under ride bar after snapping a bracket off due to the poor design).

There is a lot of lip stick on this pig 😉
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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 08:45 PM
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Not poking fun at all. However, some things are worth correcting...track or no.

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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daveoxide View Post
Last I checked a watts link uses two rods and a wobbly bit in the middle...

Regarding the washers, the traction bar brackets would not sit flush on the shock plates, hence the washers. I should probably just weld brackets directly to the shock plates and ditch the extra bracket.

I have also installed the wedges to correct the pinion angle (lowering is a side effect).

And lastly the traction bars, well, there job is obvious and they have performed well the past 10+ years (they replaced the Shelby style under ride bar after snapping a bracket off due to the poor design).

There is a lot of lip stick on this pig 😉
I was thinking it was an incomplete photo of a watts...... sorry about that. Should have looked closer.
I'm still not critiquing your stuff as I don't agree with a bunch of it.
(total guess.... the Traction Master bracket probably broke due to conflicting angles,
but I'll let someone else provide you advice)

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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-16-2019, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT289 View Post
(total guess.... the Traction Master bracket probably broke due to conflicting angles,
but I'll let someone else provide you advice)

ex-Global West GM
1991-1995
Yes, the traction masters angle of movement doesn’t match the leaf spring, plus, the stock front bracket is only single shear... all of this combined resulted in overly stiff rear suspension and eventually a broken bracket.

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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-17-2019, 12:49 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vegasloki View Post
The standard in race school and how many of us learned to race (or track day) is to get the car as generic and neutral as you can when first learning. Ditch the non stock items. Factory ride height, camber and caster and corner weights. You aren't learning to tune a car at this point. You are learning how to tune the driver. <img src="http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/images/Vintage-Mustang_2015/smilies/tango_face_grin.png" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" /> Even a poor handling car will be faster than a first time track session driver. Once you get a handle on how to drive a neutral car you can start working on tuning your car. The goal is to learn to jump into any car with a neutral setup and get as much out of it as the car is possible of giving.

Don't be this guy... <img src="http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/images/Vintage-Mustang_2015/smilies/tango_face_surprise.png" border="0" alt="" title="EEK! Surprise!" class="inlineimg" /><img src="http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/images/Vintage-Mustang_2015/smilies/tango_face_devil.png" border="0" alt="" title="Devil" class="inlineimg" />

Ha! That video made me laugh!

I was leaning towards just leaving it be for now, for the exact reason that my abilities (or rather, lack there of &#x1f92a are well behind what the car is capable of. The good part of this first track day is that there is a classroom portion, parking lot drills, and then track time, all with instructors watching close by. This is a new requirement now for folks to run at Sonoma Raceway (aka Sears Point, aka Infineon) these days if you don’t have prior track experience. I’ve heard and read nothing but good reviews about the program and am really looking forward to it!
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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-17-2019, 02:21 PM
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It's best to have the car push or under-steer if you don't have much track experience, and if you've never had the car on track. What feels neutral on the street will be too loose in high speed corners. As you gain experience you can "free up" the car (add oversteer) if you feel the need.
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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-17-2019, 02:46 PM
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The thinking behind having a neutral setup to start is so you know what the car does on its own. It gives you a baseline from which to work. You learn control of the car by learning braking and entry points along with using the right line around the corner. At a pro school the entry level drivers are not allowed to make or suggest changes to the car. It wasn't until I was in the advanced racing portion of the program I was allowed to ask for changes. A DE program is not going to be that deep but by applying an arbitrary setup changes prior to your first sessions isn't going to help the driver learn proper techniques.

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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-17-2019, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for that info, all that makes sense.

Now, when the time comes to adjust the Panhard bar, what bar movements translate to inducing more oversteer, more understeer, loading one tire more than the other, etc? I’m curious how the vehicles handling characteristics are affected by the position and angle of the bar (generally speaking).

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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-17-2019, 06:58 PM
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Well have fun with my setup folks! The only thing I found wrong with daveoxide's pictures was the exhaust! With my asthma, emphysema, COPD, or whatever the endless string of "medical professionals" are calling it this week I wouldn't last 1 minute in his car!

Maybe we should call him davecarbonmonixide?
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