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post #16 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2016, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Klutch View Post
I would politely suggest you do more research on this subject. The fact is the Cleveland does have oiling issues at higher RPMs. These issues are easily resolved with lifter bore bushings and oil restrictors to the cam bearing areas. A Cleveland which will not rev over 6,000 RPMs is probably fine, but the oiling mods are still a good idea.
Klutch,
I don't need to do any more research on the subject because I was involved with the modifications when they were FIRST developed. Most of the mods were the result on misdiagnosis of the root cause. The 351C oiling is not optimal , but is not as pathetic as you suggest. If a standard volume pump is used along with at least an 8 quart pan, the oiling "issues" are not nearly as severe as many believe. The bearing issues came at the time when the 351 was used in NHRA Pro Stock. Most guys used the Moroso rear sump pan due to the rack and pinion steering used in the Pintos. The pickup used a rubber hose to relocate the pickup to the rear and it was collapsing from the suction of the HV pump and high RPM. The engines broke left and right. Gapp &Roush , HTC, and others all came up with their "trick" ways of fixing the situation , not realizing the hose was the culprit. Lifter bushings seemed to do the trick along with the rearmost restrictor plug in the right bank oil gallery. This "problem" and it's aftermarket solutions made for good magazine article material and instantly the problem was "epidemic". This sold lots of advertiser's products and stuck in most people's minds even today. The standard oil pump for the 351W, 351C , and 385 engines all use gears that would be "high volume" in a 289-302 or FE engine. that is also why these engines use a 5/16ths hex drive shaft instead of a 1/4". It was the aftermarket , NOT Ford , that created the high volume pump for these engines. Bushing the right side lifters is good modification. I have them in my factory 351C aluminum block ( SK 42618) as a result of lifter bore wear. It never hurt a bearing before the bushings were installed or after.
Respectfully ,
Randy
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post #17 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2016, 01:08 PM
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Thanks Randy this adds to my ongoing Cleveland knowledge.

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post #18 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2016, 01:46 PM
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I've read alot of the stuff about the Cleveland and the oil issue. I never experienced that issue, but I never raced or did any hi revs in the car/truck. There was a time that the plastic oil line to the AM gauges ruptured and slowly drained the oil in the pan almost dry. I did not know the line was leaking, and barely made it home. The truck died...(yes I put a "C" in my f150 in HighSchool) just as I turned onto my street, and I coasted into my driveway. Despite being run nearly dry, I replenished the oil and drove on that motor anothe 10 years. So my experience was somewhat opposite of the write ups, in my opinion the oil system did more that it was expected too.


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post #19 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2016, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Candoo View Post
Thanks Randy this adds to my ongoing Cleveland knowledge.
+1 on the history

I have my first Cleveland sitting on my engine stand so I have no run history with this engine yet but I have been trying to collect all the info I can so I get it right. Mine is a 1970 2V including the bare heads. I'm not for sure yet just what I am going to make out of this thing but it is going in my 79 F150. I think I should be able to make it go in there.

I have read various articles about the Cleveland and there was some mention of the stock valves being 2 piece and failing under higher rev's. Is this accurate or somewhat of a myth too?


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post #20 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2016, 02:19 PM
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My stock heads were 4V not sure if 2v and 4V had same type two piece valves. But I have read several comments on valve failure due to valves separating as well.

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post #21 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2016, 02:45 PM
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Candoo and macstang ,
Thanks for the kind words, This medium often makes it difficult to know a person's background/experience. I have a bit of experience from racing Fords since '66. I hung around with the late Dyno Don and another Pro Stock racer , the late Lee Hunter during the heyday of Pro Stock racing and 351C engine development. At the time I was working for a camshaft company that was doing development with them. When Jon Kaase came on board in '76 we became friends too. The 351C 4 barrel and Boss valves are prone to breakage , especially the exhaust valves. I never run the exhaust valves even in a "restoration". I have not had a problem with the factory intakes ( single groove Boss style) but others have. The stock valve problem is not a myth.
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post #22 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2016, 03:03 PM
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Little off topic but have you looked at the several Cleveland after market blocks GT350R.......Titus and the like.

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post #23 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2016, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klutch View Post
I would politely suggest you do more research on this subject. The fact is the Cleveland does have oiling issues at higher RPMs. These issues are easily resolved with lifter bore bushings and oil restrictors to the cam bearing areas. A Cleveland which will not rev over 6,000 RPMs is probably fine, but the oiling mods are still a good idea.
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Originally Posted by GT350HR View Post
Klutch,
I don't need to do any more research on the subject because I was involved with the modifications when they were FIRST developed. Most of the mods were the result on misdiagnosis of the root cause. The 351C oiling is not optimal , but is not as pathetic as you suggest. If a standard volume pump is used along with at least an 8 quart pan, the oiling "issues" are not nearly as severe as many believe. The bearing issues came at the time when the 351 was used in NHRA Pro Stock. Most guys used the Moroso rear sump pan due to the rack and pinion steering used in the Pintos. The pickup used a rubber hose to relocate the pickup to the rear and it was collapsing from the suction of the HV pump and high RPM. The engines broke left and right. Gapp &Roush , HTC, and others all came up with their "trick" ways of fixing the situation , not realizing the hose was the culprit. Lifter bushings seemed to do the trick along with the rearmost restrictor plug in the right bank oil gallery. This "problem" and it's aftermarket solutions made for good magazine article material and instantly the problem was "epidemic". This sold lots of advertiser's products and stuck in most people's minds even today. The standard oil pump for the 351W, 351C , and 385 engines all use gears that would be "high volume" in a 289-302 or FE engine. that is also why these engines use a 5/16ths hex drive shaft instead of a 1/4". It was the aftermarket , NOT Ford , that created the high volume pump for these engines. Bushing the right side lifters is good modification. I have them in my factory 351C aluminum block ( SK 42618) as a result of lifter bore wear. It never hurt a bearing before the bushings were installed or after.
Respectfully ,
Randy
actually you both have excellent points here. in drag racing, the stock pump and large pan might do just fine since they are not hitting high rpms for very long. however engine builders like waddell wilson found that when you are running above 7500rpm for long periods of time, such as nascar engines do, then some of the more simple oiling system modifications, such as the oil restrictor mods are in fact beneficial. in the end it depends on the application as to whether you need the modifications or not.

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post #24 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-15-2016, 08:36 PM
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Little off topic but have you looked at the several Cleveland after market blocks GT350R.......Titus and the like.
they have revised oiling systems that were designed for use at high rpms for long periods of time. worth the money if you are going distance racing, but not necessary for drag racing.

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post #25 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 10:45 AM
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Little off topic but have you looked at the several Cleveland after market blocks GT350R.......Titus and the like.

Sure have. Remember I never said the factory oiling was "ideal". The oiling issues were certainly "dealt with" on the three manufacturers that I know of . That should be expected. The two versions made in the USA are very nice and I work with both of the manufacturers.
Randy

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post #26 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 10:58 AM
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they have revised oiling systems that were designed for use at high rpms for long periods of time. worth the money if you are going distance racing, but not necessary for drag racing.
The biggest improvement to Nascar engines was the ability to use a dry sump oiling system. The other tweaks Waddell did ( outlined in his book) were common changes made in the day and done to Chevys and Mopars ( i.e. cam bearing restrictors). Things change though. Now a 351C built by Waddell would have the cam inside a tube flooded with oil and oil squirters aimed at the underside of the piston. "Books" are only as current as the day they are written. You have to write another book to update the knowledge. I spent my fair share of time working with Nascar engine builders where I used to work.
Randy

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post #27 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 11:05 AM
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Sure have. Remember I never said the factory oiling was "ideal". The oiling issues were certainly "dealt with" on the three manufacturers that I know of . That should be expected. The two versions made in the USA are very nice and I work with both of the manufacturers.
Randy
I'm aware of MME, what other aluminum Cleveland blocks are out there?

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post #28 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 11:10 AM
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Running over 7,500 RPM for extended periods brings out other weaknesses in the "production " 351C block. This block which was initially designed in '67 was targeted at 550 HP max. Testing at the proposed 366ci Nascar cubic inch limit made more power than that and showed that material should be added to the main webs and pan rails to reduce cracking and cranks were made for internal balancing to reduce "end loading" and harmonics. This testing resulted in the Nascar specific , later known as the "Australian", block. These issues had nothing to do with the oil system.
Randy

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post #29 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 11:25 AM
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I searched around and could not find what horsepower the Aussie Cleveland block is rated for. Somebody has to know though. Is this an aluminium block?
The "Australian" block with heavy duty main webs and solid pan rails was designed for endurance ( 500+ mile stock car use) and a 700HP power threshold. They are iron and those released for sale had good consistency on cylinder wall thickness. Every one sold was furnished ( originally) with a sonic check sheet showing the wall thicknesses. They should ONLY be sleeved for repair purposes. The rare SK 42618 Aluminum block does use ductile iron sleeves similar to those used in modern aluminum blocks and are replaceable.

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post #30 of 34 (permalink) Old 09-16-2016, 01:40 PM
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The biggest improvement to Nascar engines was the ability to use a dry sump oiling system. The other tweaks Waddell did ( outlined in his book) were common changes made in the day and done to Chevys and Mopars ( i.e. cam bearing restrictors). Things change though. Now a 351C built by Waddell would have the cam inside a tube flooded with oil and oil squirters aimed at the underside of the piston. "Books" are only as current as the day they are written. You have to write another book to update the knowledge. I spent my fair share of time working with Nascar engine builders where I used to work.
Randy
i agree that technology marches forward all the time, and i recognize that my understanding of what wilson did was in the 70s, but those mods are still effective today as well. in the end however, it still all depends on the application as to whether certain mods are necessary or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GT350HR View Post
Running over 7,500 RPM for extended periods brings out other weaknesses in the "production " 351C block. This block which was initially designed in '67 was targeted at 550 HP max. Testing at the proposed 366ci Nascar cubic inch limit made more power than that and showed that material should be added to the main webs and pan rails to reduce cracking and cranks were made for internal balancing to reduce "end loading" and harmonics. This testing resulted in the Nascar specific , later known as the "Australian", block. These issues had nothing to do with the oil system.
Randy
good information.

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