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Toploader 3 Speed to T5 Conversion

20K views 72 replies 22 participants last post by  Huskinhano 
#1 ·
I have a stock 289 / 3 speed now and it's time for a new clutch.
Instead of just putting a clutch in I thought this would be the perfect time to do a T5 swap as I really would like to have the overdrive. I am just starting to do research and creating a parts list but the deeper I dig, the more I read, the more questions I have.

From my research so far it seems Modern Driveline is the "go-to" for the swap. I spent some time on their site and went through the order form and am not sure about some of my options. (If anyone has other suggestions as to where to source parts I would like to hear).

I see T5's on ebay for around $800-$1000 and Modern wants $1700 for a T5Z - why would I need a T5Z over a T5?

What clutch set up are most using? Z-Bar, Cable, or Hydraulic?

I don't know which flywheel I should be using. I thought I may as well replace mine while I have everything apart. Here is my choices:
28 oz 157 tooth Cast steel 10"/10.5" $165
28 oz 157 tooth Billet steel 10.5" $235
50 oz 157 tooth Cast steel 10.5" (Stock 5.0L) $150
50 oz 157 tooth Billet steel 10.5" $255

Bellhousing....mine has the bottom cover bolt broken off and should probably be replaced. Are there any issues with using a T5 Bell?

Thanks in advance!
 
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#2 ·
T5Z handles more power, a regular T5 behind your 289 should be fine, though you might want to check out craigslist for used ones, I've bought 3 so far around $100 each. I used the z bar setup in mine, only because I had the inline 6 at the time and had to use the toploader bellhousing. When I drop in the 302 this time around I will be using the T5 bellhousing and going either cable or hydraulic. You'll need the inbalance (the 28/50oz) that matches your engine, which a stock 67' 289 should be a 28 oz
 
#4 ·
I used the 91/92 T-5 in my swap. I had a 3 speed also. I modified the trans mount to work with T-5.
Used T-5 bell and installed the different fulcrum to use my throw-out arm thingy. Used the Z-bar linkage. Made an adapter to use the pivot point for Z.
Diaphram clutch is the BEST.
Why not go with an Alum. flywheel while you're in there?!!
6sally6
 
#5 ·
A stock or rebuilt stock T5 will be plenty fine behind a stock 289. Now if you plan on building up the 289 down the road for more power or getting another power platform like a stroker etc, I'd get a T5z or greater as it would be counterproductive to put a stock transmission in only to replace it shortly after. However, I have a stock T5 transmission behind a 450hp 351w and while I don't baby it, I also don't drive like a grandma either and will hold up quite well if you don't abuse or neglect the transmission. The T5z is rated to I think 300hp, there's a place in Florida I believe that's called promotion performance and they make a T5 for around $1700 that can hold up to 450hp. It really just depends on what you want and how much you want to spend. If a stock motor and a cruiser, stay with a stock T5, get an aluminum 80's bellhousing and stock mechanical linkage if you don't mind the old school feel, if not a cable clutch works well too. 157 tooth flywheel and a 10.5" clutch works.
 
#7 · (Edited)
From my research so far it seems Modern Driveline is the "go-to" for the swap.
Well, they spend a lot on advertising.

I spent some time on their site and went through the order form and am not sure about some of my options. (If anyone has other suggestions as to where to source parts I would like to hear).

I see T5's on ebay for around $800-$1000 and Modern wants $1700 for a T5Z - why would I need a T5Z over a T5?
Are you planning to beat the crap out of it?

What clutch set up are most using? Z-Bar, Cable, or Hydraulic?
You already have the clutch linkage. Why change?

I don't know which flywheel I should be using. I thought I may as well replace mine while I have everything apart. Here is my choices:
28 oz 157 tooth Cast steel 10"/10.5" $165
28 oz 157 tooth Billet steel 10.5" $235
50 oz 157 tooth Cast steel 10.5" (Stock 5.0L) $150
50 oz 157 tooth Billet steel 10.5" $255
How about you use the one you have, and put a new stock or 289HP clutch on it? Sounds like a real winner, since it's already balanced to your engine.

Bellhousing....mine has the bottom cover bolt broken off and should probably be replaced. Are there any issues with using a T5 Bell?
Well, to use your bell, you need an adapter plate. To use a T5 bell, you have to buy one, then put an adapter fulcrum in it.

You have two choices, as I see it.

1) Ignore the broken lug.
2) Find a shop that TIG welds motorboat propellers, and have them re-create the lug, drill and tap the bolt hole, and be happy.

The good news is since you have a 3-speed car, all you really need is the new clutch, the T5 and shifter (I'd recommend the stock Ford one, to eliminate headaches) T5 dummy shift lever and knob, the T5 adapter plate, and the T5 crossmember. Replace the clutch as normal, but install the T5 instead of the 3.03 when you are done. On a lift, the whole job should take only a few hours. There is a tiny chance the driveshaft might need trimming, but most likely you can re-use the shaft and slip yoke as-is.
 
#8 ·
For comparison attached is my MDL conversion quote. Like you I have a '65 289 2V toploader 3 speed, and in the spring I intend to do the T5z conversion. At the same time I want to install a hydraulic clutch along with new clutch/pressure plate & flywheel to correct a grabby clutch issue.

My thoughts on this bill of materials:
- I am going with a new T5z because I can afford it and don't want any trouble later
- hydraulic clutch because it is better than the Z-Bar and IMO less cludgy than cable
- new flywheel because the current FW will need resurfacing anyway

Things I am not sure of:
- do I really need the Quik Stik shifter
- do I need the new bellhousing because I am going with an external clutch slave cylinder
- do I really need new speedo cable
- spending $11.95/qt for Amsoil ATF or $4.95 for regular Dexron/Mercon
- do I really need new FW, pressure plate bolts
- do I really need a new slip yoke
- do I really need a new reverse switch harness
 

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#10 · (Edited)
For comparison attached is my MDL conversion quote. Like you I have a '65 289 2V toploader 3 speed, and in the spring I intend to do the T5z conversion. At the same time I want to install a hydraulic clutch along with new clutch/pressure plate & flywheel to correct a grabby clutch issue.

My thoughts on this bill of materials:
- I am going with a new T5z because I can afford it and don't want any trouble later
- hydraulic clutch because it is better than the Z-Bar and IMO less cludgy than cable
- new flywheel because the current FW will need resurfacing anyway

- spending $11.95/qt for Amsoil ATF or $4.95 for regular Dexron/Mercon
- do I really need new FW, pressure plate bolts
- do I really need a new slip yoke
- do I really need a new reverse switch harness
A good list. My take:

- I am going with a new T5z because I can afford it and don't want any trouble later
Only if you buy a crap T5
- hydraulic clutch because it is better than the Z-Bar and IMO less cludgy than cable
Pure BS.
- new flywheel because the current FW will need resurfacing anyway
So will the new one, if you are picky. And of course the new one must be custom-balanced to your engine, unless you feel lucky.

- do I really need the Quik Stik shifter
No.
- do I need the new bellhousing because I am going with an external clutch slave cylinder
A really good opportunity to spend some money.
- do I really need new speedo cable
No.
- spending $11.95/qt for Amsoil ATF or $4.95 for regular Dexron/Mercon
Hmmm…
- do I really need new FW, pressure plate bolts
I would go for the PP bolts.
- do I really need a new slip yoke
Not unless the old one is trashed.
- do I really need a new reverse switch harness
Unless you can fabricate a decent adapter harness, yes.

 
#9 ·
Here is what I would do, actually what I did, but I have a Tremec 3550 but everything else would be the same.

Buy a used T-5
Buy a shortened input shaft for the T5
Buy a cross member
Keep your stock clutch linkage
Keep your stock bell housing - no spacer needed now, or replace the damaged one with a stock type
Keep your stock clutch
Keep your stock driveshaft & yoke - no mods


Install.
Done.

Now if you feel the need to replace your clutch or flywheel its certainly a good time to do so as everything is down, but if your stuff is in good shape its certainly not necessary. Also, I am not sure on your motor build, but if its mild, you probably don't want an Aluminum flywheel as they do have some trade offs. (although I do love mine)
 
#12 ·
T5/T5Z's have a different bolt pattern than the Toploaders so to use the 3-speed bell housing one would have to use a adapter. Also I don't think that they have (I maybe wrong) a shorter input shaft for the T5 as well.

The Tremec/TKO's however share the same bolt pattern as the Toploaders & will bolt directly to the Toploader bell with a shorter input shaft which they do have for the Tremec/TKO's.
 
#11 ·
Do yourself a favor and keep your Z-bar clutch linkage. I've had the Z-bar, then went to cable, and now have hydraulic. Each of the latter two have their own issues (burning cables, leaking hydraulic seals, etc.), so I wish I would have stuck to the Z-bar. Next time I have the tranny out I'm switching back to the Z-bar. Rollerize it like many here have done for even smoother clutch actuation.

BTW - I purchased my stock 1990 T-5 off of Craigslist for $300, and with spirited daily driving with a warmed-up 351W, it's been totally fine for over 50,000 miles. You're gonna love that overdrive gear.

Have fun!
 
#15 ·
Great info from all!

I was thinking I would hear a lot of people saying to get rid of the Zbar linkage, I guess I will stick with it.

I will also start looking for a nice T5, preferably local.

I have heard the driveshaft needs to be shortened when going to a T5?

I have clutch chatter now and will need clutch, PP, throwout bearing and resurface the flywheel. And I need to send my pedal assembly in to be fixed and rollerized because it is worn out.

Huskinhano - I would do a 4 speed but the final drive gear is the same as my 3 speed. 1:1 and I want the overdrive.
 
#16 ·
I have heard the driveshaft needs to be shortened when going to a T5?
Rarely. I never had to.
With the car on the lift, rear axle hanging free, if you can install the shaft you are good to go. If you are just squeezing into the rear yoke, this will give you a little more than 1/4" clearance on the slip yoke once the U bolts are installed. Since weight on the wheels slides the slip yoke out of the trans, 1/4" when hanging is all you need.

I have clutch chatter now and will need clutch, PP, throwout bearing and resurface the flywheel. And I need to send my pedal assembly in to be fixed and rollerized because it is worn out.
Good plan. You could probably install the Drake kit yourself. Either way, it's amazing how much easier the pedal is with a roller pedal. I like the 289HP 10.5" clutch. Was also used on the BOSS 302, and won't break your wallet.
 
#19 ·
Starting a parts list and reading everybody's response, and will go back and re-read as I start making my list.
I have some more research to do regarding the clutch and if I can pull my under dash helper spring with a different clutch.

I will be traveling for work for a couple days but will be checking the thread.
 
#21 ·
Resurrecting an old thread, project was on hold for a while but now I am ready to place an order with MDL.

I have a list and talked with them today about a few things, one of my questions was that they put this on my order:
# MD-88-421-204-03 Quik Stik Shifter, Ford T-5/T-45, 1" Back

I asked about it and he said the T5 will be forward and slightly right in the stock hole in the tunnel, this shifter centers it front to back and, by bolting the shift lever to the left of the shifter, centers everything up so the boot lays correctly.

Anyone have any opinions on this? I don't want to spend the $255 if I don't have to.
 
#32 ·
I used the MDL shifter and it is centered in the shifter hole. I did a little trimming on the front of the shifter hole so I could raise the transmission as far as possible in the tunnel. I bought the imitation original shift lever and absolutely HATE it. The edges on the fake reverse lockout are about as sharp as a razor blade and always in the way. I have since removed the fake lockout and have ugly holes showing. I have no problems with the Quik Stik Shifter but have nothing to compare it to, seems to work fine to me.
 

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#22 ·
I didn't buy the MDL shifter. The stock T5 shifter fit fine through my floor opening- a little forward but not a real issue. The reason you would want an aftermarket shifter is to get stops so you can shift hard without breaking forks. The MDL shifter, last I checked, does not have stops.
 
#25 ·
Without the positive stops or better shift ratio I'd say its not worth it. At least not at first.
Like with other parts of these cars, including cutting the drive shaft, there can be enough slight variations that one car needs it and the next doesn't. Some people need to trim the right edge of the shifter hole, I didn't.
 
#30 ·
I didnt mean to seem to talk down to you but if you haven't seen them you might not know how they can leggo together.0:) You can also get some off-set joints for T5s that I guess will do what the MDL one is doing.

I've used couplings that use the u-bolt and saddle. They can be pretty much a permanent solution as many kits you can buy use only couplings. I bought a bunch of pieces from this place https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-ID-to-2-...277652?hash=item25a1bc8954:g:gBsAAOSw4GVYUFLe
There is a Permatex exhaust putty that you can use to help seal them. After it has been run a while it becomes such a hard cement that I couldn't even beat a joint apart.
 
#31 ·
I didnt mean to seem to talk down to you but if you haven't seen them you might not know how they can leggo together.0:) You can also get some off-set joints for T5s that I guess will do what the MDL one is doing.


I've used couplings that use the u-bolt and saddle. They can be pretty much a permanent solution as many kits you can buy use only couplings. I bought a bunch of pieces from this place https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-ID-to-2-...277652?hash=item25a1bc8954:g:gBsAAOSw4GVYUFLe
There is a Permatex exhaust putty that you can use to help seal them. After it has been run a while it becomes such a hard cement that I couldn't even beat a joint apart.
All good. You are right though, I am not familiar with what my options might be to get around the offset.


Thanks for the tip on the sealer. Not sure I would want to use that, being able to take them apart would be a bonus.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Yes Tom, we know.:grin2:

When I'm cruisin' in overdrive
Don't have to listen to no run of the mill talk jive
 
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#39 ·
Thanks for the info! Curious to see how it works out for you.
 
#42 · (Edited)
Got everything apart and just working on cleaning stuff up and some small parts painting while I have it apart.
I had to loosen my drivers side exhaust manifold for clearance to get the H pipe down, so that was a tense few moments, hoping the manifold bolts came loose without drama which they did. So I thought I may as well see if the other side will come off just as easy and I can have them blasted and coated - so one thing leads to another.

And so it goes, I have to replace the rear seal now, it appears thats where my oil leak is. the back of the flywheel is mostly dry, so that makes me think it wasn't the flywheel bolts leaking.

Here is a pic of my old pressure plate, clutch, and flywheel.





My flywheel appears to be trashed, really pitted. This explains my bad chatter - along with the oil leak.
 
#45 ·
When I did my MDL T5, I went with the MDL 1" back shifter. I also used the Ron Morris motor mounts and pushed it back a slight amount, avoiding cutting up my new floor.



The issue I had was with the bolt diameters. The stock style stick with the sharp lockouts had to be drilled to fit the larger bolts. Without a vise, I went to a local machine shop who did it for free.



This setup only lasted until I first drove it. The arm leans left, and with my new seat pads and my size, it hits my knee in second when I try to brake. I still need to shorten the brake push rod, but still not a good situation. Also, this arm attaches from the right side, which is ideal, but the advantage is lost with the left arm bend.



The other issue I had was the original style knob was too small. At my size, it was lost in the palm of my hand. Comparing it to my 3 speed ball, it is smaller. So I went with a larger from MDL, and went white this time. I also ordered the Lokar shifter which has similar geometry and is round to stick with my current boot, but it has no left bend. I also had smaller holes and needed drilling. It mounted from the left so I lost a half inch there. To make it all work with the recessed bolts, my machinist also trimmed the heads of the bolts to let them fit where the barrel head bolts were designed to go. Lots of work to deal with the MDL shifter using a different mounting bolt. In the end, I am much happier with this setup.



Once I shorten my brake pushrod to closer to stock, I think everything will be perfect.
 
#49 ·
I've been busy working on the car here and there, we got a new puppy in the house so he is taking up all my free time.
While I had everything apart I replaced the rear main seal, oil pan gasket, coated the exhaust manifolds, and got the bell housing cleaned up.

Anyway, should be putting in the new T5 tomorrow and was wondering what the rule of thumb is to determine if my driveshaft is too long or not. Also will have to look up how to replace the yoke with the new one I got from MDL, it's a few inched shorter than my existing one - not sure why, but it is.
 
#50 ·
Anyway, should be putting in the new T5 tomorrow and was wondering what the rule of thumb is to determine if my driveshaft is too long or not. Also will have to look up how to replace the yoke with the new one I got from MDL, it's a few inched shorter than my existing one - not sure why, but it is.
My new yoke from MDL was also much shorter? I think the rule of thumb is the yoke 1" out from full compression and I think that's what the MDL directions say. I took that to mean 1" out from the yoke contacting the tail shaft rubber seal so I had my driveshaft shortened 1/2". I probably didn't need to do that. As the rear axle moves up and down I don't think the yoke moves in or out a 1/4" at the trans.

Don't know enough to give you any advice, just my experience.
 
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