'65 Front brakes - bigger rotors or better pads? - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 10:41 PM Thread Starter
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'65 Front brakes - bigger rotors or better pads?

Hey guys. I am working on my braking system here in MN and need some advice. I will start by telling you what my current setup is.

front disc/rear drum setup, manual brakes:

Raybestos MC-36440 - new in Feb. '16
SSBC prop. valve - new in Feb. '16
Front brake hoses - new in Feb. '16
K-H front calipers - new in March '15
Hawk HPS front pads - new in April '14
Rear drums & Porterfield R4-S shoes (all drum internals also new) - new in Feb '16
10 lb residual valve in rear brake line - new in Feb '16

I have been trying to get the car to stop better and made a fair improvement last spring with the new rear drums & porterfield shoes. Before I adjusted the prop valve I was able to lock up the rear brakes but have NEVER been able to lock up the fronts. It's not that I need to be able to lock up the front brakes, the car just doesn't stop that well.

About a 2 weeks ago I ordered a SSBC brake pressure gauge kit to check what I was generating on the front calipers.

I was able to get 1000-1300 psi on both sides depending on how much I pushed the pedal. From what I have read, this is normal/adequate.

Before I installed the Hawk pads I took the rotors to a machine shop to get turned but they were too thin and at the time I didn't want to buy new rotors/bearings/races so I installed the new pads with the old rotors. I cleaned up the old rotors and sanded them down lightly but now I am thinking that maybe they were glazed enough that the new pads didn't quite bed in properly.

My wheels are large and fairly heavy (17" diameter - 22lbs each) and I am trying to decide if I should upgrade to larger rotors or go with a higher friction pad and new rotors with my stock calipers.

From all the posts I have read the K-H calipers are a good braking setup. I have never been impressed with the Hawk pads but maybe this was a glazed rotor problem and not a pad problem. Either way, if I stick with the K-H calipers I will most likely be switching to an EBC pad. I really don't want to buy new stock rotors and new pads only to find out that my large wheels are the problem and I still need larger rotors to make a difference.

I have been looking at the Mustang steve bracket kits and if I knew the 13.2" kit would fit inside my wheels I would probably go that route. If they don't fit I would be using a 12.5" rotor which I believe is only about 1 inch larger than the stock rotors...not a huge improvement in my opinion.

Do you guys think new stock rotors with EBC pads and my K-H calipers will get the fronts to lock with my wheels? Anyone out there running similar size/weight wheels with the K-H calipers? Thanks for taking the time to share your input.

1965 A code Fastback, C4 to T5 conversion, Arning drop, 3.55 rear differential, 17" wheels, 3G alternator conversion, CAA Perfect Fit Elite A/C

Daily Driver: 2015 F-150 XLT crew cab EcoBoost

Former Fords: 1972 F-100 390, 1988 Escort GT, 1992 F-150 XLT reg. cab 5.0, 2001 F-150 XLT supercab 5.4, 2003 F-350 XLT Diesel crew cab 6.0, 2005 F-150 XLT crew cab 5.4, 2013 F-150 5.0
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 10:50 PM
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I can lock up my 215/65R15's on TTD's at most any speed....

If you want to go bigger, Cobra Automotive caliper mounts and big Ford D-1 K-H calipers and rotors off a Lincoln/Thunderbird with R4S pads. They're a 12 inch x 1.245 inch thick rotor and you can still fit 15 inch rims..

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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 11:07 PM
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Are those the K-H 4 piston calipers that were notorious for sticking pucks back in the day? Surely not that now but beware for the future.
Have you tried on a loose surface or slick concrete at low speeds?
(after i got my discs all sorted I left dozens of 6" long front skids into my garage ) Just because.

Are those HPS pads "race" or "performance" pads? They might need more heat to work well.

If the rotors where too thin to machine, is it possible they are too thin for the pads to get their full bite? I don't know, I doubt it. If they are trashed from overuse they are usually warped as well, that could be your problem. You can generally tell warped rotors through the brake pedal or steering wheel.

I am mixed about the theory of properly bedding or breaking in new pads. I do it now but dont recall any problems the many times I didnt.

I'd try the new rotors 1st. Maybe some of those cryo-frozen. If it happens to be too much rolling mass in the wheels, (I doubt) sell the rotors with the new K-H calipers
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 11:23 PM
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Try some REALLY cheap-*** pads! The low end priced pads are usually softer than the "platniums" or the high end "performance pads".
In other words...the cheap pads grip better than the others...they just don't last as long.
How you break them in/bed them is very important too.
Don't take brand new pads out and immediately start stomping on them to see if they will make a darn skid mark!!
Make several normal stops getting a little more aggressive after a few normal stops.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by 6sally6 View Post
"...In other words...the cheap pads grip better than the others...they just don't last as long.
...
in a word, False. Cheap pads are often harder than a whores heart. And even if they weren't, soft pads do not ensure good braking.


the Hawk HPS front pads are holding your braking system back. The ebc redstuff pads are vastly superior, once broken in properly they will absolutely grip the rotors to the degree you are looking for. Locking up the front brakes, at 100+ mph is no problem for them. Just be sure you can handle that happening before you try it.

Z.

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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 07:43 AM Thread Starter
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in a word, False. Cheap pads are often harder than a whores heart. And even if they weren't, soft pads do not ensure good braking.

"harder than a whores heart" that's one I haven't heard...


the Hawk HPS front pads are holding your braking system back. The ebc redstuff pads are vastly superior, once broken in properly they will absolutely grip the rotors to the degree you are looking for. Locking up the front brakes, at 100+ mph is no problem for them. Just be sure you can handle that happening before you try it.

Z.
Are the redstuff pads the highest friction pads available from EBC? Maybe the others are not for street cars.

Thanks for the replies so far.



1965 A code Fastback, C4 to T5 conversion, Arning drop, 3.55 rear differential, 17" wheels, 3G alternator conversion, CAA Perfect Fit Elite A/C

Daily Driver: 2015 F-150 XLT crew cab EcoBoost

Former Fords: 1972 F-100 390, 1988 Escort GT, 1992 F-150 XLT reg. cab 5.0, 2001 F-150 XLT supercab 5.4, 2003 F-350 XLT Diesel crew cab 6.0, 2005 F-150 XLT crew cab 5.4, 2013 F-150 5.0
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 07:47 AM
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+1 On EBC redstuff pads. You can also look into Mustang Steve's Cobra calipers, they are 13" with 2 piston PBR calipers. FOr even more bite with that same bracket you could go to the 2000 Cobra r 4 piston Brembo caliper with the same 13" rotors. They should fit your 17" wheels, may need to run a shallow spacer to clear the spokes/caliper.

I had the a set of the KH calieprs before the Cobra brakes and never was that impressed with the brakes.

-Brett
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1986 Iroc-Z

Last edited by Boom; 02-14-2017 at 07:53 AM.
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by red6t5 View Post
Are the redstuff pads the highest friction pads available from EBC? Maybe the others are not for street cars.

Thanks for the replies so far
.

https://ebcbrakes.com/products/brake-pads/

They make 2 other grades of pads that are more, or exclusively, race oriented, the yellowstuff & orangestruff. Several VMF members are using the redstuff and liking them. I have about 45,000 miles using them on a '66 GT 350, and 10,000 miles using them on a '65 K code. Never had any problem with stopping as quick as needed. I know KellyH uses them now, so she probably has some miles racked up by this time as well. So she might have some valuable input.

You have to be aware they provide enough friction to lock up the front brakes, so it pays to get used to them.

PS. I realize that the bigger braking systems will brake better, but I'd try a better pads before I decided the stock KH brakes aren't good enough.

Z


Last edited by zray; 02-14-2017 at 08:16 AM.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 10:30 AM
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Yep, I use the EBC red pads on my KH discs! I have over 35,000 miles on them so far and they are awesome. They're great performance street pads that provide a significant improvement over generic brand pads and they are not too "bitey" like a race pad might be. I can lock up the fronts quite easily.

I have 215/65/15 tires on my 15x6" styled steel wheels - and I think my wheels may weigh as much as yours. The bigger contact patch that I assume you have (as a result of having fatter tires) will probably only help you though.

The EBC yellows are more for track use and bite pretty hard. IIRC, happystang's car has these - and having driven it, I can tell you that his car will throw you straight through the windshield if you stomp the brakes too hard because they bite quick. His car does also have much larger Wilwood brakes as well as much fatter tires though so it is otherwise difficult for me to compare his yellows to my reds in terms of overall stopping power.

Like zray said - while a bigger braking system will obviously give you more stopping power, the EBC pads may give you what you're looking for without costing you 700 bucks.


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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red6t5 View Post
Hey guys. I am working on my braking system here in MN and need some advice. I will start by telling you what my current setup is.

front disc/rear drum setup, manual brakes:

Raybestos MC-36440 - new in Feb. '16
SSBC prop. valve - new in Feb. '16
Front brake hoses - new in Feb. '16
K-H front calipers - new in March '15
Hawk HPS front pads - new in April '14
Rear drums & Porterfield R4-S shoes (all drum internals also new) - new in Feb '16
10 lb residual valve in rear brake line - new in Feb '16

I have been trying to get the car to stop better and made a fair improvement last spring with the new rear drums & porterfield shoes. Before I adjusted the prop valve I was able to lock up the rear brakes but have NEVER been able to lock up the fronts. It's not that I need to be able to lock up the front brakes, the car just doesn't stop that well.

About a 2 weeks ago I ordered a SSBC brake pressure gauge kit to check what I was generating on the front calipers.

I was able to get 1000-1300 psi on both sides depending on how much I pushed the pedal. From what I have read, this is normal/adequate.

Before I installed the Hawk pads I took the rotors to a machine shop to get turned but they were too thin and at the time I didn't want to buy new rotors/bearings/races so I installed the new pads with the old rotors. I cleaned up the old rotors and sanded them down lightly but now I am thinking that maybe they were glazed enough that the new pads didn't quite bed in properly.

My wheels are large and fairly heavy (17" diameter - 22lbs each) and I am trying to decide if I should upgrade to larger rotors or go with a higher friction pad and new rotors with my stock calipers.

From all the posts I have read the K-H calipers are a good braking setup. I have never been impressed with the Hawk pads but maybe this was a glazed rotor problem and not a pad problem. Either way, if I stick with the K-H calipers I will most likely be switching to an EBC pad. I really don't want to buy new stock rotors and new pads only to find out that my large wheels are the problem and I still need larger rotors to make a difference.

I have been looking at the Mustang steve bracket kits and if I knew the 13.2" kit would fit inside my wheels I would probably go that route. If they don't fit I would be using a 12.5" rotor which I believe is only about 1 inch larger than the stock rotors...not a huge improvement in my opinion.

Do you guys think new stock rotors with EBC pads and my K-H calipers will get the fronts to lock with my wheels? Anyone out there running similar size/weight wheels with the K-H calipers? Thanks for taking the time to share your input.
Your pressures are fine.
My guess is that when you sanded your rotors you actually "lubed" them. What type of abrasive did you use?
Hopefully it wasn't aluminum oxide (gray) sand paper.
Anything but garnet would have left stuff behind, hence your feeling that perhaps the pads didn't bed in.
If contaminated, you can surface your hawk pads with garnet sandpaper.
Now, onto the rotors.... the factory 65-67 kelsey hayes rotors are nearly at throw-away level right after you
take them out of the box. I doubt the repros are much better. You've turned yours as well. They are not
going to be paramount for repeated stops but if you clean them up with garnet as well, you can see what's
up pretty inexpensively. (wash the rotors with soap and water afterward) Then you'll know whether it's
new stock rotors for you or time for a "big brake" upgrade.

ex-Global West GM
1991-1995

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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red6t5 View Post

My wheels are large and fairly heavy (17" diameter - 22lbs each) and I am trying to decide if I should upgrade to larger rotors or go with a higher friction pad and new rotors with my stock calipers.
You also have a mechanical leverage deficit. I wager your wheel weighs close to 50lbs with the tire on. That's a lot of centrifugal force spinning round that you are trying to slow/stop. Larger dia. rotors move the clamp point outboard to where most of your wheels weight is.

I bet if you put stock wheels/tires back on your stopping distances decrease.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 02:28 PM
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Standing on the sidelines it occurs to me that surely EBC also makes Reds for the 1998 GT PBR calipers I am using. Put some on my shopping list. Summit racing has the ones I would need for $100.
Nice thread!
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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Your pressures are fine.
My guess is that when you sanded your rotors you actually "lubed" them. What type of abrasive did you use?
Hopefully it wasn't aluminum oxide (gray) sand paper.
Anything but garnet would have left stuff behind, hence your feeling that perhaps the pads didn't bed in.
If contaminated, you can surface your hawk pads with garnet sandpaper.
Now, onto the rotors.... the factory 65-67 kelsey hayes rotors are nearly at throw-away level right after you
take them out of the box. I doubt the repros are much better. You've turned yours as well. They are not
going to be paramount for repeated stops but if you clean them up with garnet as well, you can see what's
up pretty inexpensively. (wash the rotors with soap and water afterward) Then you'll know whether it's
new stock rotors for you or time for a "big brake" upgrade.

ex-Global West GM
1991-1995
I like this idea GT289.

I did use "regular" sand paper, I cant remember what it was composed of but I am guessing it was not garnet. What grit should I use for this and is garnet paper available at the usual retailers? I have never needed to look for it. I think this is worth a shot at least. Do you have a recommendation for stock size rotors that aren't junk?

Shaun - I still have my original styled steel wheels with mounted BFG tires. When the weather gets nice I could definitely bolt them on the front and see if this makes a difference. I would rather not spend the money on a big brake kit if it's not necessary...there are plenty of other mods I want to do.

Thanks for the info on the EBC pads Kelly. Is anyone else running the EBC yellowstuff race pads? I have been reading about them and I might give them a try.

EBC Yellowstuff Brake Pads | Yellowstuff Peformance Brake Pads

1965 A code Fastback, C4 to T5 conversion, Arning drop, 3.55 rear differential, 17" wheels, 3G alternator conversion, CAA Perfect Fit Elite A/C

Daily Driver: 2015 F-150 XLT crew cab EcoBoost

Former Fords: 1972 F-100 390, 1988 Escort GT, 1992 F-150 XLT reg. cab 5.0, 2001 F-150 XLT supercab 5.4, 2003 F-350 XLT Diesel crew cab 6.0, 2005 F-150 XLT crew cab 5.4, 2013 F-150 5.0
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 09:26 PM
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I like this idea GT289.

I did use "regular" sand paper, I cant remember what it was composed of but I am guessing it was not garnet. What grit should I use for this and is garnet paper available at the usual retailers? I have never needed to look for it. I think this is worth a shot at least. Do you have a recommendation for stock size rotors that aren't junk?


Try not to go any over 160 grit...... the bigger numbers aren't the hot ticket (too fine).
At the other end of the range, a 60 grit is far too rough. Probably a big box retailer
won't have garnet. I like Ace and True Value for this kind of stuff. Surprisingly, I did
see some 150 garnet at Home Depot awhile back...... when I wasn't looking for it.

Those 65-67 rotors are hard to deal with. I went with the bigger LTD/Galaxie rotors and
calipers years ago and never regretted it. Photo below.

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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by red6t5 View Post

Thanks for the info on the EBC pads Kelly. Is anyone else running the EBC yellowstuff race pads? I have been reading about them and I might give them a try. ......"
I too would like to hear from happystang, or anyone else that's using the yellowstuff pads. I've always been concerned that I couldn't keep them hot enough, even during spirited street driving, to keep them at the effective temperature range. There's always an interval between curves when on the highway, even a curvy 2 lane, if the brake pads are cooling off too much to be effective I'd be concerned that I'd be giving up braking power with the race pads instead of enhancing it. The redstuff pads seemed to fit my usage pretty well so I've stuck with them. But if the yellow stuff pads aren't too extreme for street driving, I'm all ears.

Z

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