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-   -   Looking for some advice on a possible trade for my '65 (https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/1059017-looking-some-advice-possible-trade-my-65-a.html)

donkeykong 05-25-2017 01:13 AM

Looking for some advice on a possible trade for my '65
 
So here's the car in question for those not familiar with it...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2.../photo%204.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2.../photo%203.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...kongjr/009.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...kongjr/011.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...kongjr/015.jpg

393 Stroker 351W platform
AFR Heads
Holley Terminator EFI
MSD Ignition
TCP rack and pinion
TCP Coilover Front Suspension
Mustangs to Fear Side Scoops
Autometer gauges
SSBC Disk Conversion
9" rear with 3.73 Motive gears
Tremec TKO500 transmission
Full TMI interior and door panels
Scott Drake everything that could be removed and replaced
American Racing Torq Thrust II 17"

I've had various cash offers and trade offers for my car over the last 2 years. A recent trade proposal has caught my attention though. Title for title, keys for keys....

My car for a flawless 2005 Dodge Viper with 12,000 miles.

I'm intrigued at the prospect, but I don't have any experience with those vehicles. Truthfully, for no particular reason, it never crossed my mind to even own one. I'm not particularly attached to my car, I love it, enjoyed the 19 months of the build, really enjoy driving it and showing it, but this is just my hobby so I don't have any sentimental value to the car at all besides having my blood and sweat into it. I also don't have any brand loyalties when it comes to classic and collector cars, I enjoy and appreciate all types of different vehicles. What would you guys do in my position?

Target 05-25-2017 01:28 AM

I think you need to drive the Viper. I don't have any experience behind the wheel of anything with more than eight cylinders but I have seen a fair few people online (mostly Reddit), that say they are stupid, obscenely, and dangerously fast. As in you may not be able to enjoy yourself in the car because you're fearing for your life.

supershifter2 05-25-2017 02:30 AM

i wouldnt trade your mustang for a new vet ! you have a really nice mustang.

RickD 05-25-2017 07:55 AM

I can clearly see why the guy with the Viper wants to trade! Nice car!

gt350sr 05-25-2017 08:25 AM

Fast forward- 5 years from now where do you see the value of your Mustang vs the value of the Viper? Historically speaking, I'll venture a guess that your Ford will appreciate while the Viper may or may not. As long as you see yourself still ahead of the game at some point down the road when the Viper is on the block, I'd say it's definitely worth considering. If not, it's like trading coins for magic beans, right? Don't forget about insurance rates and reg fees- I'm guessing they'll be considerably higher ( at least they would be here). Just my opinion, but I'll pass every Viper/Vette/VW at a show to get to the older Ford stuff.... of course I haven't driven one either... Damn- good luck with that brother!

rose62 05-25-2017 09:45 AM

Viper-coupe or 'vert?

donkeykong 05-25-2017 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Target (Post 9048089)
I think you need to drive the Viper. I don't have any experience behind the wheel of anything with more than eight cylinders but I have seen a fair few people online (mostly Reddit), that say they are stupid, obscenely, and dangerously fast. As in you may not be able to enjoy yourself in the car because you're fearing for your life.

Oh...I drove out!! :surprise::surprise::surprise:

It was unbelievable! 525 foot pounds of torque is no joke at all!

donkeykong 05-25-2017 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gt350sr (Post 9048473)
Fast forward- 5 years from now where do you see the value of your Mustang vs the value of the Viper? Historically speaking, I'll venture a guess that your Ford will appreciate while the Viper may or may not. As long as you see yourself still ahead of the game at some point down the road when the Viper is on the block, I'd say it's definitely worth considering. If not, it's like trading coins for magic beans, right? Don't forget about insurance rates and reg fees- I'm guessing they'll be considerably higher ( at least they would be here). Just my opinion, but I'll pass every Viper/Vette/VW at a show to get to the older Ford stuff.... of course I haven't driven one either... Damn- good luck with that brother!

That's where I'm ultimately stuck! On the one hand the "value" of my Mustang is somewhat up in the air from open a KBB book and turn to a page, where the Viper has an exact number for any bank or dealership to look at. That's really the least of my value...collectors know what they're looking at and I'm not looking to sell anyways.

It is magic beans though, you're right about that. Ultimately my biggest concern is where are things going to be in 5 years...nobody knows that answer, least of all me. I read an article that the Gen 3 Viper was projected to have quite an increase in value. Is that true, who knows?

donkeykong 05-25-2017 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rose62 (Post 9048745)
Viper-coupe or 'vert?

Vert.

slim 05-25-2017 10:14 AM

What do you want from the car? Occasional tour? Daily driver? Show car? Sports car racing? Investment? Comfortable driving?

Only you have the answers.

rose62 05-25-2017 10:21 AM

If future "value" is the question....
 
Demographically speaking, I think the Viper WILL continue to appreciate exponentially while the Mustang, and especially a highly modified Mustang (regardless of how tastefully modified), will kind of track along with inflation-plus perhaps a bit. Just as the cars from the '20's, '30's and '40's kind of topped out (with some exceptions) when those who so badly wanted them as teens, grew up and entered, then left, their prime earning years, I see the same thing beginning to happen with the Mustang (and other "muscle cars," again, with the exception of highly original and low production examples). That and the fact that so many were built.

The Mustang has been, to a degree, immune from this demographic trend. But I've seen it lamented on here before that fewer young folks are taking up the hobby.

So, as an investment (plus for the joy of driving) the Viper (tho I really prefer the coupe) would be a good choice.

The caveat being that this is all JMHO, with nothing but anecdotal observations, versus real research, to back it up.

donkeykong 05-25-2017 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slim (Post 9048833)
What do you want from the car? Occasional tour? Daily driver? Show car? Sports car racing? Investment? Comfortable driving?

Only you have the answers.

It would be the same as the Mustang...Occasional tour. Investment. Sports car racing.

donkeykong 05-25-2017 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rose62 (Post 9048865)
Demographically speaking, I think the Viper WILL continue to appreciate exponentially while the Mustang, and especially a highly modified Mustang (regardless of how tastefully modified), will kind of track along with inflation-plus perhaps a bit. Just as the cars from the '20's, '30's and '40's kind of topped out (with some exceptions) when those who so badly wanted them as teens, grew up and entered, then left, their prime earning years, I see the same thing beginning to happen with the Mustang (and other "muscle cars," again, with the exception of highly original and low production examples). That and the fact that so many were built.

The Mustang has been, to a degree, immune from this demographic trend. But I've seen it lamented on here before that fewer young folks are taking up the hobby.

So, as an investment (plus for the joy of driving) the Viper (tho I really prefer the coupe) would be a good choice.

The caveat being that this is all JMHO, with nothing but anecdotal observations, versus real research, to back it up.

I'm with you on your line of reasoning...I see what you're saying and it does make some sense.

MUSTANG65FBK 05-25-2017 01:19 PM

I'd stick with the mustang. Although the viper is no doubt fast and with lots of power, it'll likely decrease in value over the years, as others have mentioned. Also, with having a fastback, the values are im betting will continue to go through the roof and you'll have a hard time finding a decent project fastback in the near future if you ever wanted to go back. And if power is what you're looking for, why not tweak the motor you've got to put out that kind of power? I wouldn't imagine it'd be too difficult to get that kind of power out of your stroker motor

fej 05-25-2017 01:23 PM

I had a friend of a friend who loved Vipers, he had 4 of them. The reason he had four of them was because at least 2 of them were always in the shop for one reason or another, sometimes 3 and he wanted one to be available to drive at all times. This is not a knock, and it also is not a joke, absolutely true and is a quote from the owner on why he owned four of them.

Really cool car from a design and performance standpoint, and the early ones are scary fast with limited nannies to keep the car heading in the right direction, which is making them more and more rare as people run out of talent while stomping on the rectangular pedal on the right.

Based on your car vs the Viper, unless it is a car you have always wanted to own, I wouldn't do it. 12 year old Viper well outside of warranty that was only driven 1k miles per year. Could be a giant can of worms you are walking in to, do lots of forum research before you pull the trigger IMO. There are certainly particular things to watch for on a 2005, the forum gurus will tell you about them.

Great FB btw, well done.

rose62 05-25-2017 01:30 PM

"It would be the same as the Mustang...Occasional tour. Investment. Sports car racing."

On the investment point I totally disagree with the proposition that the Viper will flat-line or drop in value. They were produced in extremely limited numbers, and were at or near the top of the heap performance wise every year that they've been produced. Seldom does this formula, along with the low miles, result in poor values later on. I don't see the Viper breaking that trend. Look at Hemmings: They're climbing now and I have to believe they will continue to do so.

MUSTANG65FBK 05-25-2017 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rose62 (Post 9049449)
"It would be the same as the Mustang...Occasional tour. Investment. Sports car racing."

On the investment point I totally disagree with the proposition that the Viper will flat-line or drop in value. They were produced in extremely limited numbers, and were at or near the top of the heap performance wise every year that they've been produced. Seldom does this formula, along with the low miles, result in poor values later on. I don't see the Viper breaking that trend. Look at Hemmings: They're climbing now and I have to believe they will continue to do so.

I disagree. Even when the Viper was brand new, at least around my area, they weren't popular and nobody drove them, nor would you ever see one. Part of that is obviously because of the price and production numbers but I just don't ever think they were that popular of a car. Second, I admittedly know little to nothing about the viper, but on nada.com it lists a 2005 srt10 viper for $45k and had an msrp of $80k+ when brand new. Dropping half the value in a little over 10 years would only make me think it's going to continue doing the same thing in the next 10 years or so.

Pmustang 05-25-2017 01:59 PM

This is easy

If you sold your Mustang today, Let's say for arguments sake for $40k in hundred dollar bills

Would you go down to a used car lot and hand it immediately over for this Viper?

That's your answer

Your car is easily sold. Probably within a few days. The Viper most definitely not

For me to trade one of my stangs, and I am offered a trade at least once a week it has to be a slam dunk that is an extremely easy decision to make

JeffTepper 05-25-2017 02:56 PM

Since the allure of the Viper can be found at the other end of the throttle pedal, consider what other high torque engined cars might also provide you with the level of visceral excitement that the Viper did on your test drive. As a suggestion, a Superformance Cobra with the appropriate engine will likely press the same buttons the Viper did. One neighbor had a Superformance with a 408 Windsor that was a torque monster. On a test drive with him driving, he hammered the throttle producing instant massive acceleration.......my head felt like it was peeling off of my neck. By the time I successfully struggled to regain horizon, he pulled for 2nd gear and the rocket sled ride was repeated. Insane forward motion. Definitely a moon-shot.

Another friend of mine has a 2016 Mustang GT with the Hennessy supercharger package that Hennessy claims puts out 700+ horsepower. Even with drag radials, traction is a challenge with the rear end wiggle wagging all the way down the road any time he exercises the throttle pedal.

From a somewhat different perspective, consider that most new car showrooms have had at least one brand new factory built car with 500+ horsepower available for each of the past several years. For example another neighbor had a Mercedes E63 AMG sedan with 507 horsepower that he sold recently to his son and daughter in law as they needed more room for their growing family than her SRT8 Challenger could provide. That Mercedes was instantly quick, almost brutally so, and but for the son and daughter in law pulling the trigger, I'd like to think that car would be parked on my side of the street!!

My point is, you have lots of choices, all good, some possibly better. Enjoy the selection process.

MUSTANG65FBK 05-25-2017 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffTepper (Post 9049649)
Since the allure of the Viper can be found at the other end of the throttle pedal, consider what other high torque engined cars might also provide you with the level of visceral excitement that the Viper did on your test drive. As a suggestion, a Superformance Cobra with the appropriate engine will likely press the same buttons the Viper did. One neighbor had a Superformance with a 408 Windsor that was a torque monster. On a test drive with him driving, he hammered the throttle producing instant massive acceleration.......my head felt like it was peeling off of my neck. By the time I successfully struggled to regain horizon, he pulled for 2nd gear and the rocket sled ride was repeated. Insane forward motion. Definitely a moon-shot.

Another friend of mine has a 2016 Mustang GT with the Hennessy supercharger package that Hennessy claims puts out 700+ horsepower. Even with drag radials, traction is a challenge with the rear end wiggle wagging all the way down the road any time he exercises the throttle pedal.

From a somewhat different perspective, consider that most new car showrooms have had at least one brand new factory built car with 500+ horsepower available for each of the past several years. For example another neighbor had a Mercedes E63 AMG sedan with 507 horsepower that he sold recently to his son and daughter in law as they needed more room for their growing family than her SRT8 Challenger could provide. That Mercedes was instantly quick, almost brutally so, and but for the son and daughter in law pulling the trigger, I'd like to think that car would be parked on my side of the street!!

My point is, you have lots of choices, all good, some possibly better. Enjoy the selection process.

+1 I'd buy a Nissan GTR, Porsche or just about any other car before I bought a Viper.

donkeykong 05-25-2017 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MUSTANG65FBK (Post 9049417)
I'd stick with the mustang. Although the viper is no doubt fast and with lots of power, it'll likely decrease in value over the years, as others have mentioned. Also, with having a fastback, the values are im betting will continue to go through the roof and you'll have a hard time finding a decent project fastback in the near future if you ever wanted to go back. And if power is what you're looking for, why not tweak the motor you've got to put out that kind of power? I wouldn't imagine it'd be too difficult to get that kind of power out of your stroker motor

As it sits it has way to much engine at 570 hp, I don't even have traction through 3 gears if I'm flooring from a stand still. Power isn't an issue now, it's just somewhat unusable...but a heck of a lot of fun!

You make valid points on the replacement Fast Back though.

donkeykong 05-25-2017 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fej (Post 9049425)
I had a friend of a friend who loved Vipers, he had 4 of them. The reason he had four of them was because at least 2 of them were always in the shop for one reason or another, sometimes 3 and he wanted one to be available to drive at all times. This is not a knock, and it also is not a joke, absolutely true and is a quote from the owner on why he owned four of them.


Great FB btw, well done.

Now that's good information!

And thank you! :thumbsup:

dobrostang 05-25-2017 04:02 PM

I ran with the viper club at Laguna Seca with the Lotus club. I have to say I was not particularly impressed with them around the corkscrew, I was running a Saab SPG and remember hearing two guys talking about not being able to catch me till they had some breathing room. Now where there is room they are undeniably staggeringly fast. Could have been the drivers but I could hang with them in the corners till the torque came on then it was long-gone-daddy...

Its a tough call, personally I like driving my own creation and would not value as much a car that joe next door could duplicate with a signature.

donkeykong 05-25-2017 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rose62 (Post 9049449)
"It would be the same as the Mustang...Occasional tour. Investment. Sports car racing."

On the investment point I totally disagree with the proposition that the Viper will flat-line or drop in value. They were produced in extremely limited numbers, and were at or near the top of the heap performance wise every year that they've been produced. Seldom does this formula, along with the low miles, result in poor values later on. I don't see the Viper breaking that trend. Look at Hemmings: They're climbing now and I have to believe they will continue to do so.

I read an article recently outlining this very argument.

donkeykong 05-25-2017 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pmustang (Post 9049537)
This is easy

If you sold your Mustang today, Let's say for arguments sake for $40k in hundred dollar bills

Would you go down to a used car lot and hand it immediately over for this Viper?

That's your answer

Your car is easily sold. Probably within a few days. The Viper most definitely not

For me to trade one of my stangs, and I am offered a trade at least once a week it has to be a slam dunk that is an extremely easy decision to make

Well damn...that's quite a fantastic argument. I didn't look at it from that perspective.

donkeykong 05-25-2017 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobrostang (Post 9049833)
I ran with the viper club at Laguna Seca with the Lotus club. I have to say I was not particularly impressed with them around the corkscrew, I was running a Saab SPG and remember hearing two guys talking about not being able to catch me till they had some breathing room. Now where there is room they are undeniably staggeringly fast. Could have been the drivers but I could hang with them in the corners till the torque came on then it was long-gone-daddy...

Its a tough call, personally I like driving my own creation and would not value as much a car that joe next door could duplicate with a signature.

I appreciate those thoughts...especially the last sentence.

rose62 05-25-2017 06:55 PM

As far as the "in my area they weren't that popular.."; How many times have I read about Daytonas, Superbirds and even GT350s sitting on the lot for 3 months, 6 months, a year or even more? Lots. A 65 GT350 sold as a '66 coz it didn't sell? Seems outrageous. But it's a fact.

However, don't be fooled by my excellent arguments: I'd keep the Ford.


What is the grammatical rule for the plural in the above sentence? Damn if I know.

happystang 05-25-2017 07:27 PM

For an 05 Viper? Heckkkkkkk NO. Look at the prices of older Vipers, they have dropped to nothing.

rose62 05-25-2017 08:31 PM

$38K is nothing? They'll never go much lower. But, I could certainly be wrong.

donkeykong 05-29-2017 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rose62 (Post 9050481)
$38K is nothing? They'll never go much lower.

That seems to be the general consensus on a variety of forums.


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