Question about converting carb to efi on 64 mustang - Page 3 - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-13-2017, 06:07 PM
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I know this is not a carb vs. efi topic, but I have to add. I've never had to rebuild my carbs 3 times a year. Once they are right, thats it. That goes for the 4 Weber 2V carbs in my sig pic, as well as every Autolite or Holley that I've used.

I use good fuel filters. and change or clean the element yearly. That doesn't seem to be too much maintenance to me. But maybe it is for some folks.

You can get better emission control with efi vs. a carburetor, which I believe is the primary reason we don't see new carbed engines anymore. Certainly not any reason related to performance.

my 2 cents


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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-13-2017, 06:10 PM
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Why not use a carb? Cold start driveability, constant AFR correction in all conditions, better mileage, better emissions.

And while we're at it, why use disk brakes? Drums work well if you adjust them right. As a matter of fact, why have a car? We can all ride horses!
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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-13-2017, 06:18 PM
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As a matter of fact, why have a car? We can all ride horses!
Yeah, I tried that. It would buck unexpectedly and I could find no way of tuning that out. The emissions were horrible regardless for AFR, not to mention the horsepower.
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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-13-2017, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by zray View Post
I know this is not a carb vs. efi topic, but I have to add. I've never had to rebuild my carbs 3 times a year. Once they are right, thats it. That goes for the 4 Weber 2V carbs in my sig pic, as well as every Autolite or Holley that I've used.

I use good fuel filters. and change or clean the element yearly. That doesn't seem to be too much maintenance to me. But maybe it is for some folks.

You can get better emission control with efi vs. a carburetor, which I believe is the primary reason we don't see new carbed engines anymore. Certainly not any reason related to performance.

my 2 cents


Z

I was reluctant to post again to this thread but agree with Z.

The plastic car sat in storage for about a year while I was working on some home projects. After retrieving it from storage they leaked a bit so I rebuilt those carbs. First time they had been off the car since 2003.

The holley on the mustang has been rebuilt 4 times since '82. Most recently because it had not been started in about 5 years and it just seemed prudent. I also wanted to replace the throttle plates that had been drilled (in '82) for a big lumpy cam that is no longer in the car.

EFI is great. Couldn't imagine a new car without it, but there is nothing wrong with carburetors.
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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-13-2017, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JSHarvey View Post
For a 260 V8 the FITech 400 hp unit ($795) would be fine (FITech Fuel Injection FiTech 30003 Go Street 400 HP EFI Conversion). You need to spring for a 4 barrel intake though. ebay is your friend (Ford 289-302-5.0 WEIAND 8011 4 barrel intake manifold Mustang Torino GASSER 347 | eBay).



A slighter more difficult swap (but low cost) would be to just get a complete modern EFI off of a totaled V8 Mustang (or other Ford) from the junk yard and swap it all over - lots of threads on that in the forum.



Or even better just get a period correct Ford Autolite carb.



Just my opinion.


I actually was able to fine one that's matching numbers for this car except it was for a manual not auto so all nUmber match but that. Anyways I'm saving for efi. I appreciate all the comments and suggestions though!


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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-13-2017, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bacchus203 View Post
Yeah, I tried that. It would buck unexpectedly and I could find no way of tuning that out. The emissions were horrible regardless for AFR, not to mention the horsepower.


I love animals but I couldn't do that! I'm allergic to everything outside! But I like your thoughts! Lol


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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-13-2017, 07:41 PM
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General Motors :: GM TBI Products :: Complete TBI Kits :: Universal TBI Kits :: #HF289 Ford 289 CID TBI Conversion Kit

For the OP, that's who I'd call if you have to go EFI. I like EFI, my cars will be converted as soon as I put the unit on that are sitting in the trunk. (I grew up with carbs, i know how to tune em and I have the pieces to do it but I'm still going with EFI) However, I don't think anything is simpler than a Ford 2bbl carb, and if that's what I ran on my old cars it wouldn't get swapped out. They are about the easiest thing to work on in the automotive world. Maybe putting the air cleaner wing nut on is easier. If you had the proper one and tuned it right I don't see any gains on a 260 2bbl by going to a EFI.

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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-14-2017, 07:26 AM
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How is tuning handled with that setup? it looks to be a standard narrowband O2 sensor so it really should only be able to see and adjust for stoich. Thats something I'd want to really find out about before purchase. It looks as though its just a recycled GM EFI system so making sure it's tuned correctly to run OP's small block would be a concern.

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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-14-2017, 07:39 AM
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Carbs do their job perfectly adequately. But EFI does it so much better and with so much less drama it's not even in the same ballpark. There's a reason many racers have gone to EFI in addition to the OEMs and those of us who have switched will never go back.
I put this very question to a friend who has a serious speed shop, with a chassis dyno built into the floor. He said it's easier to get good performance from EFI, but for balls-out maximum performance the carburator beats it by maybe 5%. It's just harder to get there. He has the advantage in experience, and of course his dyno makes it possible to operate cars at wide-open throttle while setting adjustments.

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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-14-2017, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Earthbound View Post
I actually was able to fine one that's matching numbers for this car except it was for a manual not auto so all numbers match but that. Anyways I'm saving for EFI. I appreciate all the comments and suggestions though!
I assumed with my prior answer your goal was to have a smooth-running daily driver, on a budget. Installing a correct carburetor at a cost to you of roughly $2-300 would do that, versus over $1500 (for the EFI kit and intake manifold). But you are apparently looking for a reason to buy the EFI.

If you want to achieve your stated goal of a good-running daily driver, contact someone like KP Carbs and ask them about providing a proper C4ZF-E.

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post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-14-2017, 09:30 AM
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I put this very question to a friend who has a serious speed shop, with a chassis dyno built into the floor. He said it's easier to get good performance from EFI, but for balls-out maximum performance the carburator beats it by maybe 5%. It's just harder to get there. He has the advantage in experience, and of course his dyno makes it possible to operate cars at wide-open throttle while setting adjustments.
Interesting. Is that an apples to apples comparison? In other words, is that pulling off a modern TBI unit and dropping on a carb and picking up 5% or does that include an intake or other changes as well? What kind of engines? What kind of EFI?

I could easily see picking up 5% by going from the stock comb-over EEC IV setup to a single-plane on a 5.0 but that's more to do with intake than fueling but also with the EEC being 20-30 years old. EFI tech is moving pretty quickly now.

What does he think of the Engine Masters segment on EFI vs carb? The carb lost about 3% power (12.5hp peak) consistently under the curve above ~4k. The EFI was easier and quicker to tune than the carb too once they got past some sort of issue running a dual plane intake.

Seems like fuel is fuel. A carb and EFI should be neck to neck in peak power all other things equal. EFI would have the edge in precision though, so I would expect it to potentially make more power under the curve and be more drivable. EFI also does baro adjustments for you so you don't have to change tunes due to DA changes.

All I have access to is a butt dyno and it's not very accurate!

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post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-14-2017, 10:13 AM
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$1400 to fix a 2bbl carb problem? I would consider a 4bbl manifold and a NEW 4bbl carb to save money and increase the performance.
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post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-14-2017, 11:51 AM
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How is tuning handled with that setup? it looks to be a standard narrowband O2 sensor so it really should only be able to see and adjust for stoich. Thats something I'd want to really find out about before purchase. It looks as though its just a recycled GM EFI system so making sure it's tuned correctly to run OP's small block would be a concern.
It's a pre set tune, it's not a full learning unit. You can calibrate the PROM chip, it will come calibrated from Howell for the engine you tell them. It is not a unit for a modified engine. It's for stock. They can be calibrated for a small cam but the TBI computer requires a good vacuum signal to the MAP sensor. They are good units, GM put millions of them out there and they were pretty much trouble free. Very simple EFI system compared to the full MPI stuff. I used one on a Jeep 6 and it was miles ahead of the crap carb that Jeep used in the 80's. Another friend did an IHC 345 conversion and liked it, later went to a wide band Edelbrock unit and doesn't like it. To me it's like the Autolite 2bbl of EFI units.

69 Mach One, 428CJ, 5 Speed, 3.91's.
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post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-14-2017, 12:33 PM
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It's a pre set tune, it's not a full learning unit. You can calibrate the PROM chip, it will come calibrated from Howell for the engine you tell them. It is not a unit for a modified engine. It's for stock. They can be calibrated for a small cam but the TBI computer requires a good vacuum signal to the MAP sensor. They are good units, GM put millions of them out there and they were pretty much trouble free. Very simple EFI system compared to the full MPI stuff. I used one on a Jeep 6 and it was miles ahead of the crap carb that Jeep used in the 80's. Another friend did an IHC 345 conversion and liked it, later went to a wide band Edelbrock unit and doesn't like it. To me it's like the Autolite 2bbl of EFI units.
Cool, I was just wondering how it was tuned. I'm sure it works wonderfully once it is tuned for an engine as its an OEM system. I just didn't know how close the open loop fuel table would be just taking a stab at what the tune should be for a SBF.

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post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old 07-14-2017, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jcoby View Post
Interesting. Is that an apples to apples comparison? In other words, is that pulling off a modern TBI unit and dropping on a carb and picking up 5% or does that include an intake or other changes as well? What kind of engines? What kind of EFI?
As I recall it was primarily V8 Mustangs, with the only change being an intake swap to facilitate the change from EFI to carburation.

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