The Great EFI Debate - Page 10 - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #136 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-22-2018, 08:13 PM
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Well.
OEM EFI setups do not enter closed loop until the oxygen sensors come up to temperature and provide a solid reading. To hasten that process they are equipped with heaters. All this I know. I don't play with aftermarket setups and can only hazard that they can get away with going straight to closed loop when cold because they don't have to meet pollution specs. But that's all guesswork until someone who has used and successfully set up one of these systems AND is knowledgeable about how they work might decide to be kind enough to fill me in on what they are doing and how. I thought one of those people might be in this thread. Perhaps I was mistaken.
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post #137 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-22-2018, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by donkeykong View Post
You won't! That shop was trying to push their overstock Terminator models on you, since everybody was buying the sniper while the Terminator sits on the shelf.

I bought the Terminator when it first came out as the Sniper had not been invented yet. Great product, worked flawlessly on my 500 hp 383 Stroker. I probably didn't use half of the functions.

I now have the Sniper on another vehicle with a Keith Craft 600 hp 427...works just as flawlessly as the Terminator and ran in "closed loop" from the first turn of the key on the Street setting.

What you have is nowhere near too wild for the Sniper to handle!
Thanks for the reassurance! I'm sure it will be fine. I can't wait to get it back on the road!
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post #138 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-23-2018, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by GypsyR View Post
Well.
OEM EFI setups do not enter closed loop until the oxygen sensors come up to temperature and provide a solid reading. To hasten that process they are equipped with heaters. All this I know. I don't play with aftermarket setups and can only hazard that they can get away with going straight to closed loop when cold because they don't have to meet pollution specs. But that's all guesswork until someone who has used and successfully set up one of these systems AND is knowledgeable about how they work might decide to be kind enough to fill me in on what they are doing and how. I thought one of those people might be in this thread. Perhaps I was mistaken.
You're right. Until the o2 sensors are heated up and giving feedback you can't go into close loop mode fueling. There are a bunch of parameters you can adjust on aftermarket ecu's(maybe not all), about when you go into closed loop and out of closed loop. In my Haltech I don't have it going into closed loop until it hits 130 as I find it easier to use the open loop fuel maps for when it's cold. I can adjust other parameters for close loop fueling, such as throttle position and map sensor readings. I am not sure in OEM maps how soon they go into closed loop, however through their R&D they would have the perfect fueling already sorted for function and emissions, so closed loop wouldn't really be necessary right away as their open loop maps would be spot on.

Last edited by hus65; 10-23-2018 at 07:26 AM.
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post #139 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-23-2018, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GypsyR View Post
Well.
OEM EFI setups do not enter closed loop until the oxygen sensors come up to temperature and provide a solid reading. To hasten that process they are equipped with heaters. All this I know. I don't play with aftermarket setups and can only hazard that they can get away with going straight to closed loop when cold because they don't have to meet pollution specs. But that's all guesswork until someone who has used and successfully set up one of these systems AND is knowledgeable about how they work might decide to be kind enough to fill me in on what they are doing and how. I thought one of those people might be in this thread. Perhaps I was mistaken.
You know the internet, sometimes things get lost in translation. You're comment came off, to me at least, as trying to point out an error when that wasn't the intent of what I was posting.

The aftermarket set-up does not go directly to "closed loop". The unit will not start "learning" until the engine temp is at least 160*. At that point, it will enter "closed loop" and start adjusting the air/fuel mixture...adding and subtracting as necessary through different RPM's.

1965 Fastback 393W Stroker
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post #140 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-23-2018, 11:28 PM
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I have the Holley terminator, but only because I already had the HP ECU.

If I was to do it again, I would go with the sniper.
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'67 Coupe, 347 w/ Holley Terminator EFI
AOD w/ B&M short Megashifter
EPAS w/ Bruno Box
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post #141 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-30-2018, 04:47 PM
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Lot's of good info here. I too want to go with the Holley Sniper on my 302 and hopefully will add an 4r70w tranny with the bauman control. I'm like Kelly, I want to travel the US with this car and don't want to deal with adjustments all the time. Plus the convenience of having OD to keep the fuel mileage in check.
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post #142 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-30-2018, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdave View Post
".......I'm like Kelly, I want to travel the US with this car and don't want to deal with adjustments all the time......"

Not trying to sway anyone away from an EFI conversion, most everyone has their mind made up one way or the other. But it has to be said that one does NOT need to be fiddling with a carb in order to make a cross country trip. History can tell you that.

Does anyone think that old granddad or grandma were rejetting the carb on their station wagon every time they changed elevation before the days of electronic fuel injection ? No they didn't touch the carb, not even once. Pre 1980, I drove Mustangs, Shelbys, Triumphs, Jaguars, and even VW Karmann Ghia's from coast to coast without even thinking about the carb. Even drove a clapped out K code up the entire Ande mountain chain from Santiago Chilie to Colombia, a journey which had more extreme elevation changes than anywhere in the USA.

There's a lot to be said for fuel injection , and for some people it makes a lot of sense. But life went on just fine before it came along, and without anyone needing to fiddle with a carb in order to cross the Rockies.

Z
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Last edited by patrickstapler; 10-30-2018 at 09:20 PM.
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post #143 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-30-2018, 08:03 PM
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Well damn, Indiana Jones! I thought I was cool because I threw mud grips on the back and put concrete blocks in the trunk so I could drive up on the Appalachians back in the 70s. Iíve been duly calibrated.....
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Get off my back, get out of my pocket....

1965 2+2 painted (66) Vintage Burgundy, 1998 roller 5.0 with GT40P heads, plans are for Sniper, T5 and 3:55 rear.
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post #144 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-30-2018, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by coolblue65 View Post
here is what I did and spent

FiTech - I paid $799 (was the $999 model, had $100 rebate plus 10% summit code)
Spectra EFI 20g fuel tank, pump and sending unit ~$320 (from Rockauto w/5% off code) https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...132489&jsn=442
Fuel lines & fittings about $150 or so:
Used my original 5/16 hard line for return
bought a new 3/8 hard line for send
Cut both at the firewall and ran braided lines up to FiTech
Total ~$1,200
Done.
Thats exactly what I did at the same time and cost other than I went with the 16G Spectra tank with the infamous back gunk that cost me a fuel pump. My first Fitech unit lost Tach signal after a few minutes while at the same time the black gunk ate the fuel pump while an improperly machined Scat crank ate the thrust bearing in the 331.
A lot of issues have been resolved since then. What I know now. I don't think you can tune a carburetor not to percolate fuel in the summer if you live in a "non attainment" area of the USA that contains a bunch of ethanol or what ever mix of crap they put in my gas in the summer. Yes, I tried every miracle carb spacer. I think if you ran a return style fuel system with an electric pump you would probably be OK with a carburetor after the electric pump recirculated past the vapor lock and re-filled the float bowls. I wish I had tried this first. To be clear, the carb was boiling the fuel out of the float bowls after shutdown on an 80 degree day making it impossible to restart. Not just the Mustang, but everything I owned with a carb at the time.
I might be too stupid to adjust a carburetor, although I got away with it back in the day, but technology marches forward. If you don't feel like changing jets and springs and want to be able to restart your car on a hot day in a non-attainment area of the country while still looking somewhat stock under the hood to the casual observer the TBI units can be a pretty good deal.

The exotic and expensive fuel lines people think they need to run to install fuel injection leave me baffled. Do what coolblue65 and I did and save a bunch of money and time.

65 C Code hardtop from California still wearing it's original paint.
Roller 331, TW 170 heads, T-5z, FiTech EFI, HiPo Manifolds, Arvinode exhaust, SoT Bilstien coilover front suspension, TJ on eBay 8" 3.40 Trac-Loc 3rd member. Mustang Steve 2008 GT bracketed 12.4" front disks

Last edited by Nailbender; 10-30-2018 at 09:13 PM.
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post #145 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-30-2018, 09:30 PM
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Well damn, Indiana Jones! I thought I was cool because I threw mud grips on the back and put concrete blocks in the trunk so I could drive up on the Appalachians back in the 70s. Iíve been duly calibrated.....
You were, and still are cool, and probably a lot smarter than me. You probably would've had a navigator that wasn't zonked on mushrooms the whole way. My pal was supposed to drive as much as me, but as it turned out he was incapacitated too much for that role.

As it was, we got lost 40 or 50 times thanks to the furry freak bro's sense of direction. As in, "Hey man, I don't need no stickin' maps, I navigate by the stars...."

Ahhh, youth. Bulletproof AND good looking.


Z

PS. We had planned on hitchhiking the whole way. But we spied a clapped out K code for sale after going 40 or 50 miles. Couldn't pass that up.
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post #146 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-30-2018, 09:34 PM
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At least with the mushrooms you weren't doing over 25 mph. Or so I've heard.

65 C Code hardtop from California still wearing it's original paint.
Roller 331, TW 170 heads, T-5z, FiTech EFI, HiPo Manifolds, Arvinode exhaust, SoT Bilstien coilover front suspension, TJ on eBay 8" 3.40 Trac-Loc 3rd member. Mustang Steve 2008 GT bracketed 12.4" front disks
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post #147 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-30-2018, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post
At least with the mushrooms you weren't doing over 25 mph. Or so I've heard.
No working speedo, but I kept the tach to a minimum of 3,500 rpm and a maximum of 5,500. Except in towns.

I did manage to hit a burro going an estimated 60 mph. The owner of the dead beast was not laughing, and he put about 40 machete whacks into the sheet metal before I got him calmed down and paid off.

The best fun was bouncing the rear fenders off of the guardrails at 10,000 + ft elevation. And without exception , all the people we encountered treated us like royalty, that was pretty cool.


Z

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post #148 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-30-2018, 09:53 PM
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Must have been different shrooms! My bad.

65 C Code hardtop from California still wearing it's original paint.
Roller 331, TW 170 heads, T-5z, FiTech EFI, HiPo Manifolds, Arvinode exhaust, SoT Bilstien coilover front suspension, TJ on eBay 8" 3.40 Trac-Loc 3rd member. Mustang Steve 2008 GT bracketed 12.4" front disks
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post #149 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 01:28 AM
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Is there some reason people go with aftermarket EFI instead of just building the OEM EFI system? There should be tons of them out there and not all that hard to get parts for or doing mods.
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post #150 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 09:05 AM
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For me, several reasons

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
Is there some reason people go with aftermarket EFI instead of just building the OEM EFI system? There should be tons of them out there and not all that hard to get parts for or doing mods.
Aesthetics, stock looks like a dead octopus. Doesnít look period correct like a Sniper, etc. with a breather cover.
Simplicity, easier to put a Sniper on an plug and play, versus getting a harness from here, an ECU from there, etc.
Other, issues with Monte Carlo bar and other issues.....see ďdead octopusĒ comment above.

But thatís just me. I havenít pulled the Sniper trigger yet and I have a new Explorer EFI setup on the engine now on the stand. Iíll likely make it easily available to someone when I do.
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