The Great EFI Debate - Page 11 - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #151 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by zray View Post
some carbs requires more maintenance than others. Do you like to open the hood and fuss over of the engine ? If not, keep the Autolite carb or get the Summit Autolite look-a-like. The Autolite can go years without a bit of fussing over, maybe decades. That's if you will driving the car on a regular basis. You can't just park it for months or years either. Not going to drive the car in the winter ? Then at least adde some Stabil or even better, drain the gas.


If you're not willing to do things like that, then start modernizing the car. You WILL be diluting the classic car experience, but the pure classic car experience is like drinking Tequila straight outa' the bottle.

Exhilarating, but not for everybody.


Z
I really like Z’s analogy as well. I get the EFI attraction. I really do. I mean, when Holley came out with that Terminator “Stealth” EFI that looks like a double pumper I had to literally slap my own hand away from the keyboard. I road tripped 2,000 miles last winter (more than halfway across the country) and constantly fiddling with the carb was a pain in the ***, as were cold starts below freezing, but I tell you what...it all made the trip more memorable.

Part of owning and driving a classic car (for some folks anyway), is having the WHOLE classic car experience. You don’t really see 911 guys modernizing their cars, and in my humble opinion, the Mustang is a fine enough beast to deserve that same level of reverence. I cherish the analog experience. I seek to increase the analog experience, in fact, with things like chassis and suspension stiffening, and my absolute favorite modification on ANY classic car, a mechanical secondary double pumper Holley; I know a lot of people HATE that carburetor, and they can be temperamental, but few things run as hard as a well-tuned mechanical secondary double pumper carb.

To the folks who say that EFI “doesn’t dilute the classic car experience”, I say, respectively, that you’ve forgotten what the classic car experience is...

I don’t advocate that everybody share in my same level of lunacy, and I suppose that there is certainly a place for “restomods” in this world...it’s just not in my own garage.
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post #152 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 12:25 PM
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Holley Sniper has some parts that are not user serviceable and the unit must be sent to Holley for repair. The ECU and fuel injectors fall into this category. The external sensors and IAC can be replaced with off-the-shelf parts. A few parts such as the fuel pressure regulator are available only from Holley. Holley does support their products for a long time. They still sell parts for their old Pro-Jection and Commander systems. But if the ECU fails or the fuel injectors foul, the TBI unit must be removed and sent to Holley.
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post #153 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 12:47 PM
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I dont know that I am in it for the "classic car experience" as much as I am in it for the "fun to drive, fun to work on, and is a really cool car" experience. I have a really nice, professionally built carburetor that will probably be all I ever NEED... but that doesnt stop me from wanting to scratch that "work on it" itch from time to time (although right now I would like less working and more driving).

I guess I am more of the "restomod" camp than true "classic car experience."
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post #154 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 01:16 PM
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I dont know that I am in it for the "classic car experience" as much as I am in it for the "fun to drive, fun to work on, and is a really cool car" experience. I have a really nice, professionally built carburetor that will probably be all I ever NEED... but that doesnt stop me from wanting to scratch that "work on it" itch from time to time (although right now I would like less working and more driving).

I guess I am more of the "restomod" camp than true "classic car experience."
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. There are people attracted to the car hobby for a wide variety of reasons, and being one of the most popular cars ever built, Mustangs have had it all done to them. I suppose the popularity of restomods is probably the only part that worries me; the idea that some day there might not be any original examples left...though that’s probably not very likely. I mean, mine isn’t a resto, so I guess it too is a “restomod”, just a different kind (resto-modify vs. rest-modernize)...though I DO have overdrive.

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post #155 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 01:53 PM
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Is there some reason people go with aftermarket EFI instead of just building the OEM EFI system? There should be tons of them out there and not all that hard to get parts for or doing mods.
Have you looked under the hood of a late model Mustang with EFI? They are bulky and ugly as s*@t. I wish Ford Racing would come out with a setup like LS7 has. Those are really nice.
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post #156 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 03:22 PM
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I've driven lots of carbureted vehicles cross country, half across the country, to the mountains, etc, and don't recall having to fool with any carburetors. At all. I always got them sorted out long before I left. Along with the rest of the vehicle. I can't picture stopping on the road and fiddling with anything I own to make it go like it's a dust bowl clunker model T in the Great Depression.
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post #157 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 03:40 PM
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I went on a small road trip around the state several years ago with the local mustang club and a couple of the old mustangs with carburetors had to stop and turn around as they couldn't make it up the pass because of carburetor issues. Not sure if they were improperly tuned or what the deal was but I was following a couple of them, they stopped at a gas station and didn't see them again. I talked with a guy later who was a friend of one of them and said they were having carb issues.

To me I'd love to have no smell when I start up the car or put it away for the night in my garage. I don't have much of a gasoline smell right now but it would be nice if it went away entirely. That as well as I'd love to not have to wait 5-10 minutes for the car to get warm, I'd love better throttle response and maybe even get a couple more mpg's or ponies along with it. One other member mentioned he gained about 50hp when he took his to get it tuned. That would always be nice. And I hear that they're just more fun and much more drivable.

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post #158 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 06:07 PM
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Most of the 70's-'80's carbureted vehicles had charcoal canisters to absorb fuel fumes and they worked quite well. For some reason no one is ever interested in retrofitting any such equipment, they just want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. So to speak.

I dated a girl once who said she kind of stuck on me because the faint lingering gas and oil odors on me reminded her of her dad, who was also a gearhead. A rare one she was though I expect.
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post #159 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 06:17 PM
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I don't mind the smell of gasoline or oil. I just don't want it lingering in my garage/house for days at a time.
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post #160 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 07:05 PM
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Bet money your modern EFI car has a charcoal canister on it somewhere that stifles that gasoline smell for you. (Assuming you have such a vehicle)
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post #161 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 07:45 PM
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Confused

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Originally Posted by GypsyR View Post
Most of the 70's-'80's carbureted vehicles had charcoal canisters to absorb fuel fumes and they worked quite well. For some reason no one is ever interested in retrofitting any such equipment, they just want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. So to speak.
I’m interested, but for gas tank vent. Pretty set on the Sniper. Thinking about the old hard line vent out of the filler neck into a canister. No comment on the paint sniffing girlfriend, still processing that one....

Get off my back, get out of my pocket....

1965 2+2 painted (66) Vintage Burgundy, 1998 roller 5.0 with GT40P heads, plans are for Sniper, T5 and 3:55 rear.
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post #162 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 07:47 PM
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No idea. My little pos daily driver is an 06 Honda Civic.
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post #163 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MUSTANG65FBK View Post
I went on a small road trip around the state several years ago with the local mustang club and a couple of the old mustangs with carburetors had to stop and turn around as they couldn't make it up the pass because of carburetor issues. Not sure if they were improperly tuned or what the deal was ........"e.
To the point, that's a case of Bad tuning that was more evident in the high altitudes.

There's too much history and current evidence that a properly tuned carb'd engine will have no problem climbing ANY mountain in the USA for us to make anything substantial of these types of incidents.

Aside from my South American adventures in a vintage Mustang, I recall driving from Norman Oklahoma to Seattle Washington in a '67 coupe with a stock 289 4V, no problems . The year was 1990, and I was pulling a little 8 foot U-haul trailer (yes, I had a trailer hitch installed). The trailer was jam packed with household goods, as well as a 1968 Honda CB-350, stuff that wouldn't fit in our big Hertz truck rental. I had no trouble going 70-75 up every mountain and pass encountered. Just like everyone else had been doing for 40 years.


People can blame carburetors for lots of issues, but not the need to re-jet merely to cross the Rockies.

Z
rpm and Trikk like this.

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post #164 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 09:48 PM
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I've driven lots of carbureted vehicles cross country, half across the country, to the mountains, etc, and don't recall having to fool with any carburetors. At all. I always got them sorted out long before I left. Along with the rest of the vehicle. I can't picture stopping on the road and fiddling with anything I own to make it go like it's a dust bowl clunker model T in the Great Depression.
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To the point, that's a case of Bad tuning that was more evident in the high altitudes.

There's too much history and current evidence that a properly tuned carb'd engine will have no problem climbing ANY mountain in the USA for us to make anything substantial of these types of incidents.

Aside from my South American adventures in a vintage Mustang, I recall driving from Norman Oklahoma to Seattle Washington in a '67 coupe with a stock 289 4V, no problems . The year was 1990, and I was pulling a little 8 foot U-haul trailer (yes, I had a trailer hitch installed). The trailer was jam packed with household goods, as well as a 1968 Honda CB-350, stuff that wouldn't fit in our big Hertz truck rental. I had no trouble going 70-75 up every mountain and pass encountered. Just like everyone else had been doing for 40 years.


People can blame carburetors for lots of issues, but not the need to re-jet merely to cross the Rockies.

Z

I get a pass on the road trip anecdote. I flew out to Nebraska and bought the car, drove it over the Rockies through Denver, down to LA, and up to San Francisco. It wasn’t my tuneup, and we discovered several things that weren’t working right along the way, including broken vacuum advance and a cylinder that was way down on compression. I had to “fiddle” with it a couple of times to make it through the Rockies...mostly because it was my brand new car and I didn’t want to hurt anything.

But I still disagree with your comments slightly. This is a performance car hobby, right? I would challenge either of you to produce a state of tune that worked optimally at over 5,000 feet and at sea level (with a 65° temperature swing to boot). “Optimal” is at least a couple jet sizes apart for that elevation change. If you tune very conservatively (and if everything’s working right) you can have something that’s happy enough anywhere to get around without any serious issues, and if you’ve got a hot tuneup in Denver you should probably dial it back (richer) before you drive down to sea level. I mean, that’s why OEMs changed tuneup specs based on where the car was being sold, right? And that’s why the accelerator pump cams on the Strombergs on my Flathead have a slot marked S and a slot marked W...

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post #165 of 193 (permalink) Old 10-31-2018, 10:37 PM
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Well sure, you could fiddle with things if you wanted. Me, I'll put up with some high altitude lack of power when I know I'll shortly be back down in a valley. Point being that the vehicle is capable of traveling competently. Now if you drive up to Vail from Wichita and plan to spend a week it's probably worth diddling the mixtures a bit.


I drove an EFI F150 up into high altitudes once. Every few thousand feet I would give it a few seconds of full throttle. A manual way of forcing the EFI to retune itself a bit to compensate for the thinner air. And thicker air going back down of course. Only applies to vehicles with an air flow meter but no MAP sensor but a neat trick. It would eventually self-compensate but it's a more long term thing. I still have that truck and I still do a reset of the MAF that way once in a while. Yep, THAT's totally why I do those full throttle pulls. Yessir.

I totally forgot. My old cross-countried Harley has a thumbscrew on both the high and low speed mixture screws so I can and do reach down and adjust mixtures at will as I ride. I don't recall ever tweaking specifically for altitude but it hasn't been to the Rockies or Tetons, just the Ozarks and Blue Ridge.
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