The Great EFI Debate - Page 2 - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #16 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panabax View Post
".....So I say, unless you want to maintain originality, there is no reason not to go efi.
No reason, except for the expense and time spent getting it dialed in. I'm condensing your own words in your post, but you are mentioning those things yourself.


Z


PS my garage (and I) never smelled like gasoline in any carb'd car I've owned, including the one in my sig pic. If a gassy smell is coming from a car, blame the person in charge of tuning it, not the technology, or lack of it.
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post #17 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 03:52 PM Thread Starter
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Right, so I've gone and ordered this because it's bound to happen eventually and i want some predictability with my classic when if i travel for 2 weeks and come back i don't want headaches starting plus i live in a warm climate so would like to use the car over summer as well in 115 degrees!

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post #18 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 04:02 PM
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I'm trying to remember all those times in the last 53 years my 1960's vintage cars were sidelined because they wouldn't start, or the weather was too hot, or too cold, or I'd been driving it 365 days a year..... funny, adding it all up, it still comes to zero.


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post #19 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 04:31 PM
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I don't see what the temperature has to do with running a carb. When my DDs had carbs (1 Holley, 2 Carter AFBs and several Q-Jets) I never had issues or a need to re-tune when the temps went from summer 90s to the sub-zeros of winter and back. I also never had heat issues even in Chicago rush hour traffic during the summer when driving a carbed car.

I can't comment much on altitude issues other than I did take a trip up the great divide (to Yellowstone N.P) in a 68 Camaro (Q-Jet) and we didn't have to touch the carb once on that trip. The 2 speed PG trans gave that engine a workout across the full RPM range. I will admit disc brakes would have been nice on some of those long downhill stretches.

As for fumes my garage never has gas or exhaust fume smells nor do my wife and my clothes smell from gas after an afternoon's ride in either classic car.

Since we have 2 classic cars (both with carbs) they take turn sleeping while the other is out playing but that still doesn't cause starting issues. The only time they don't want to start is the first start of the spring when they haven't been run for 6 months. Even then it only takes an extra couple of pumps and cranks to get either started.

My wife has no problem starting and driving cars with carbs. She's not afraid of starting even for the first time in spring. She loves driving her Mustang and she's even taken to getting time behind the wheel of my 69 Camaro which was built for the track. My wife has a lead foot and loves to take the Camaro and pick races with the fart-can tuner cars (she's learning how to make the tires hook).

Having ridden in a '70 Chevelle with EFI I will say you can feel the difference between EFI and carb. It's that carbed engine sound and feel that keeps drawing the wife and I back to carbed cars. I for one will never bastardize either of our classics with EFI and my wife will agree.
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post #20 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 04:50 PM
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For the folks that recommend a carb, what do you use to tune your carbs? It can't be hearing or smell, you have some type of Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) gauge? I have been debating this as well, I know my carb is not tuned very efficiently, other then tune to get max vacuum, not sure how you change jets and other things without a good AFR gauge? I know how to change them but what tool do you use to pick the best ones? My car also has a mild cam which I know I have to tune my carb for and the EFI would handle that on its own since its less vacuum. Tuning a carb does take knowledge and time and is sort of a a dieing art, most folks make it seem like its easy and no big deal, or is it just me.

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post #21 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zray View Post
PS my garage (and I) never smelled like gasoline in any carb'd car I've owned, including the one in my sig pic. If a gassy smell is coming from a car, blame the person in charge of tuning it, not the technology, or lack of it.
Fumes or gas smell is a good indicator that something is amiss that needs attention.

New technology computers use all the sensors to mask a problem that should have been addressed way before it throws out an error code. That's one reason I never keep a newer car past its full warranty.

Just my opinion.

Bob

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post #22 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by my289 View Post
For the folks that recommend a carb, what do you use to tune your carbs? It can't be hearing or smell, you have some type of Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) gauge? I have been debating this as well, I know my carb is not tuned very efficiently, other then tune to get max vacuum, not sure how you change jets and other things without a good AFR gauge? I know how to change them but what tool do you use to pick the best ones? My car also has a mild cam which I know I have to tune my carb for and the EFI would handle that on its own since its less vacuum. Tuning a carb does take knowledge and time and is sort of a a dieing art, most folks make it seem like its easy and no big deal, or is it just me.
Yep the best way to tune a carbed car is with an AFR. They're worth the money it will pay for itself in fuel economy or possible lean conditions leading to engine repairs.

A little bit of a learning curve this is hobby I use to learn & enjoy (most of the time).

Bob

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Some previous cars: 68 Shelby GT500 428 Auto, 40 Chev Coupe 283, 47 Fiat Topolino B/A Chev 288 Hilborn, 64 Plymouth 426 Hemi SS/BA, 70 & 71 Cuda & Challenger 426 Hemi SS/AA, 55 Chev 327, 55 Chev Nomad 283, 57 Chev Nomad 327,
57 Pontiac Safari 389, 63 Corvette 327, 68 Cougar XR7 302, 68 Camaro RS/SS 327
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post #23 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by JonnybravoM3 View Post
Right, so I've gone and ordered this because it's bound to happen eventually and i want some predictability with my classic when if i travel for 2 weeks and come back i don't want headaches starting plus i live in a warm climate so would like to use the car over summer as well in 115 degrees!

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/FIF-31003

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Man, that is not a bad price for the entire kit. I would have suggested the Holley sniper, but I think now-a-days they are both about comparable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by panabax View Post
That said, I am not willing to put a comb over modern factory type efi on my car. When you pop the hood on my 65, it looks like it should until you notice that the distributor is missing and there is a fuel pressure regulator. Still, those differences are subtle and do not distract from the overall look and feel.

So I say, unless you want to maintain originality, there is no reason not to go efi.

Baxter
Yeah, the comb over. I installed the 5.0 EFI with the comb over (I use that term all the time too) and never did care for it. It did not look right and never ran right.

I went from the Ford 5.0 EFI and EEC to the Holley Terminator TBI with the HP ECU. It runs great and looks better than the comb over.

I switched to EFI because I wanted the convenience of PC tuning and trending. I had the 2v carb tuned fairly well on my 289, but it still was not perfect. I know with some more tweaking, I could have got it to start perfectly, every time, and I could have gotten the AFR to the perfect setting that the garage did not smell, but it is a convenience to be able to tune it from a PC, or have it self tune.

My only suggestion is, stay away from the Ford TFI distributors. They might seem like a cheap means to control the timing with EFI, but it is +30 yo technology. Either skip the PC controlled ignition and get a ready-to-run or an aftermarket controlled distributor (Holley dual sync, etc).

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post #24 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 05:23 PM
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I don't personally have either setup but will be buying the Holley Sniper EFI kit before the summer and have it ready to go before the weather starts getting nice again. I've heard mixed reviews on the FiTech, some of them being about the product itself in which a few members had to ship them back and exchange for another, but most of the issues were customer service related. Either you'd never get a call back or the sales associate wouldn't honor the warranty or whatnot. I think even one member lost his shorts on the FiTech because he got a couple different "lemons" and then he was out of the warranty period. I'm going to go with Holley because they've been around for almost 100 years and have had great luck with their carburetors as well as their customer service.

In terms of the argument for drivability and it driving like a classic? Well that went out the door when I first bought the car as the engine and transmission had both been replaced and then several years later I repainted the car, upgraded to 4 wheel power disc brakes, 17" wheels and tires, all brand new aftermarket suspension, a 5spd transmission and an engine that has over double the HP of a stock 289/302 with aluminum heads. Lastly, in terms of the "classic car feel", I don't know of any mustangs having had EFI back in the day, I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but the Corvette and other vehicles have had EFI since the 1950's and even before. While this particular style of EFI I'm sure is quite different from those early types, it's not really something that's only been around for a few years. It's been around for over 70 years in terms of automobiles and even earlier for diesel engines, aircraft engines and so on. I'd think the pro's would severely outweigh the con's and like I said, I'll be buying the Holley Sniper before summer.

Last edited by MUSTANG65FBK; 01-29-2018 at 05:28 PM.
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post #25 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 05:25 PM
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No reason, except for the expense and time spent getting it dialed in. I'm condensing your own words in your post, but you are mentioning those things yourself.
Fair enough, especially as to cost. Time and tuning are part of the hobby for me. That's why I went with the Microsquirt as opposed to a more self tuning option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zray View Post
PS my garage (and I) never smelled like gasoline in any carb'd car I've owned, including the one in my sig pic. If a gassy smell is coming from a car, blame the person in charge of tuning it, not the technology, or lack of it.
No doubt. I will gladly admit that I suck at tuning carbs. :-)

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post #26 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 05:40 PM
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My only suggestion is, stay away from the Ford TFI distributors. They might seem like a cheap means to control the timing with EFI, but it is +30 yo technology. Either skip the PC controlled ignition and get a ready-to-run or an aftermarket controlled distributor (Holley dual sync, etc).
I don't know if this was in response to me or not. If so, I am not running a distributor at all. I use a 36-1 crank trigger wheel and sensor similar to what is used on the late 5.0 Explorers. The Microsquirt reads the crank trigger directly and then fires two Motorcraft EDIS coil packs. Each coil pack is two coils with four outputs for wasted spark. These are the same coil packs on the Explorers and some other Ford products. They work great and the 36-1 trigger wheel gives rock solid timing at any usable RPM.

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post #27 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 05:55 PM
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The PO stated that he doesn't have any experience tuning carbs. People have chimed in with extensive experience with carbs, probably built over many decades. For those that have the experience...good on you and I wish I had some more of it. It makes it easy to tune and keep it tuned. For a carb newb though, the situation is different. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with putting efi on a vintage mustang, especially the new throttle body systems that are hidden under an air cleaner. Looks original and, worst case scenario, has the drivability of a car with a well tuned carb. Best case is increased drivability and ease of tuning. Let's also not forget, for the purists, this this is not an irreversible mod.


If the internet and forums were around in the early 1900s, I'm sure people would claim that horses have worked for thousands of years too...why the need for motorized transportation? We are living in a golden age of rodding. sometimes it's best to embrace technology so each person gets the best experience out of our "hobbies". For me, my MSD Atomic kit is sitting in the garage for install as soon as I'm done rewiring the car...
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post #28 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 06:02 PM
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When I got my FB, almost 20 years ago, I switched out from a 2 bbl to a Holley 4bbl. Tuned it one time and haven't touched it since. Engine runs perfect. Never have had a problem.
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post #29 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 06:36 PM
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PS my garage (and I) never smelled like gasoline in any carb'd car I've owned, including the one in my sig pic. If a gassy smell is coming from a car, blame the person in charge of tuning it, not the technology, or lack of it.

Gotta disagree with you here Z. My car has always smelled up the garage. It doesn't leak and I always use a vacuum gauge to tune the carb. It doesn't smell of rich exhaust fumes. I can drive the car into the garage that hasn't been occupied by the car and turn it off. The engine has been on for what - maybe 30 seconds while in the garage? I can leave the garage door open and close it later. The garage will stink for maybe 5 days until the fuel bowl dries up, and then no more stink. I've talked with EFI guys and none have complained of stinky garages. I've gotta believe it's fuel vapor coming out the bowl vents. I rarely drive it more often than once a week. I know the fuel bowl is dry because it takes forever to get it started if I don't squirt some gas in the vent before I set the choke to start it. If I do fill the bowl it starts right up. If I drive it within a few days it starts right up. If its leaking internally and ends up in the intake manifold, then its been doing that since 1969 when I bought it. I've gone though many, many carb kits since then. Until I let it sit too long after my first wife passed, this was absolutely the most reliable car I ever had.

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post #30 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 06:45 PM
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Gotta disagree with you here Z. My car has always smelled up the garage. It doesn't leak and I always use a vacuum gauge to tune the carb. It doesn't smell of rich exhaust fumes. I can drive the car into the garage that hasn't been occupied by the car and turn it off. The engine has been on for what - maybe 30 seconds while in the garage? I can leave the garage door open and close it later. The garage will stink for maybe 5 days until the fuel bowl dries up, and then no more stink. I've talked with EFI guys and none have complained of stinky garages. I've gotta believe it's fuel vapor coming out the bowl vents. I rarely drive it more often than once a week. I know the fuel bowl is dry because it takes forever to get it started if I don't squirt some gas in the vent before I set the choke to start it. If I do fill the bowl it starts right up. If I drive it within a few days it starts right up. If its leaking internally and ends up in the intake manifold, then its been doing that since 1969 when I bought it. I've gone though many, many carb kits since then. Until I let it sit too long after my first wife passed, this was absolutely the most reliable car I ever had.
1). Your float was likely set too high. Some factory carb specifications, like Holley's) end up setting the float too high A gas smell in the garage is NOT going to happen when the fuel system is working correctly.

2). Your float bowl drying up was not normal. Although that situation can be difficult to diagnose, it's not impossible to cure. There is often a flaw in the carbcasting, and no amount of carb kits is going to fix that.


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