The Great EFI Debate - Page 3 - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #31 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 07:05 PM
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If I could do it again, I would do an EFI carb set up.

That said, I learned how to modify and tune my carb to the point where the EFI would not have any benefits other than adjusting itself for different weather. My carb runs noticeably leaner in 40-50* weather since I tuned it in ~85* weather. I only drive the car in 60-95* weather, and really 90% of the time in 70-90*.

If it's too cold to roll down the windows, or if I'm melting in the car, I don't drive it.

I do wonder if they make any more power at all at WOT.

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post #32 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by aslan View Post
When I got my FB, almost 20 years ago, I switched out from a 2 bbl to a Holley 4bbl. Tuned it one time and haven't touched it since. Engine runs perfect. Never have had a problem.
Stan
I don't know, needing to fuss over it every 20 years seems like a lot of work.



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post #33 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by panabax View Post
I don't know if this was in response to me or not. If so, I am not running a distributor at all. I use a 36-1 crank trigger wheel and sensor similar to what is used on the late 5.0 Explorers. The Microsquirt reads the crank trigger directly and then fires two Motorcraft EDIS coil packs. Each coil pack is two coils with four outputs for wasted spark. These are the same coil packs on the Explorers and some other Ford products. They work great and the 36-1 trigger wheel gives rock solid timing at any usable RPM.

Baxter


Naw, not directed at you, just a general suggestion to anyone considering EFI with ignition control. I quoted you on the “comb over” comment.


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post #34 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 09:08 PM
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I can't tune anything but a Holley 1850 and they leach gas. I live in one of the 2 counties in my state, by less than 2 miles, that are "non attainment areas", so we have emissions gas during the summer and it boils out of the carb and vapor locks every time you turn the car off even with the fancy spacer.

I bought the FiTech and Spectra EFI tank. The pump in the Spectra tank fried immediately due to the, apparently still present to this day with the currently produced tanks, "black gunk". The FiTech failed soon after that was fixed with a no tach signal situation. The Spectra people are vermin offering no help and speaking in French. I took French and they were messing with me with jive French at best. Cory at FiTech was able to eventually help me get a new TBI with an updated wiring harness just before the warranty expired.

I would go with the Holley over the FiTech because they are well established company with a larger tech support base. I applaud FiTech for breaking the $1000 FI barrier, although they went to China to do it.
Once sorted out, it runs well and doesn't percolate fuel.

I would do it again with a Holley Sniper and my own in tank pump setup. Purchase a solid pre-bent 3/8 fuel line from NPD and run it alongside the original 5/16 fuel line. Use the new 3/8 line as the supply and the original 5/16 as the return. It is the cheapest and safest way to go.

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post #35 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 09:11 PM
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I went with the sniper setup and a spectra tank and 3/8 pre bent line and will use the stock line as a return. Should have it all up and running come april!

Hidden under a factory gold stock air cleaner. With all the lines run to look factory. I can't totally hide a bunch of the other stuff, but I'll do my best to make it look like the factory intended it to be there!
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post #36 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 09:13 PM
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I went Holley Sniper - the tech support community is strong, and the software seemed easy to understand. I just did all the measurements and engine rotation to install my distributor (MSD) and phase the rotor. The Sniper comes with a coil driver, so you can control timing without a big MSD ignition box as well. It also has a built in relay for the fuel pump.

I needed all new fuel system components...fuel tank, lines, etc. For me, EFI was a no brainer. The sniper, and other TB kits, still gives you the classic underhood look.

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post #37 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 09:25 PM
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I don't care which side of this debate you are on, if you describe customer service reps as vermin, I'm with you 100%


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post #38 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 09:31 PM
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I think some of it is personal preference, and/or what you are used to.

For me, I grew up with fuel injection, however... Not on my Mustang, but when I built my Cobra kit, I initially used the stock Ford EFI and even went as far as putting a Vortech blower on it. Drove it for several years like that, then got the full vintage bug. Pulled the motor, swapped in a 331 with dual quad carbs and haven’t looked back. The sound, smell and look of a carb is pure vintage to me! I knew nothing about carbs and have learned to tweak it to run pretty well.

I’ve since rebuilt the Mustang carb as well and it runs pretty well too. I only put a few thousand miles at most on them annually, so I may not be the best data point. Good Luck!

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post #39 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 10:32 PM
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Converted this engine from SEFI 5 years or better ago no changes but the induction. only issue was the foam floats went bad and installed brass ones 3 years ago no issues since. Winter only adjust the idle feed screws about a quarter turn. I drive it any nice day and take 1000 mile or better trips often as well as around town. gets 24 mpg

The injected version only got about 20 mpg after months of data logging and tuning didnt preform as the carbs

Now my truck a 86 dually with a 460 built for towing would get around 14 mpg until the inner pivots of the twin I beams screwed up the alignment. have thought about CFI on it from time to time
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post #40 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-30-2018, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by my289 View Post
For the folks that recommend a carb, what do you use to tune your carbs? It can't be hearing or smell, you have some type of Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) gauge? I have been debating this as well, I know my carb is not tuned very efficiently, other then tune to get max vacuum, not sure how you change jets and other things without a good AFR gauge? I know how to change them but what tool do you use to pick the best ones? My car also has a mild cam which I know I have to tune my carb for and the EFI would handle that on its own since its less vacuum. Tuning a carb does take knowledge and time and is sort of a a dieing art, most folks make it seem like its easy and no big deal, or is it just me.
when i learned to tune carbs, the a/f meters were around, but they were expensive, usually running over $1000 each, an expense smaller shops, and even race teams found excessive. so i learned to tune carbs the old fashioned way, by reading the plugs, listening to teh exhaust note, the way the car felt, etc. as i gained experience working with carbs, i found i could make better judgements on how much and which way to make jetting, mettering rod or power valve changes, and even learned to tune weber carbs, though i dont have great experience tuning them so if i ever have to tune a set it will take me longer to get them right.

these days, if i need to tune a carbed engine, it takes me about as long to tune one, as it does for modern tech to set up the equipment and measure the gas levels.

maybe one day i will pick up an inexpensive exhaust gas analyzer, who knows.

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post #41 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-30-2018, 12:25 AM
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1). Your float was likely set too high. Some factory carb specifications, like Holley's) end up setting the float too high A gas smell in the garage is NOT going to happen when the fuel system is working correctly.

2). Your float bowl drying up was not normal. Although that situation can be difficult to diagnose, it's not impossible to cure. There is often a flaw in the carbcasting, and no amount of carb kits is going to fix that.


Z
I really don't want to hijack this thread, but it is the stock Autolite 2100 2V, and the float is set to their specs. I've never had float problems that I know of.
So let me ask you, how long does it take your fuel bowl to dry up? I mean, eventually it should- right? The bowl vent on this carb is linked to the throttle and when the throttle is closed the vent is open. The vent hole is uncovered with fuel directly below it and it is open to the atmosphere.
I've even had it on the bench with the bowl filled for days and it doesn't seem to be leaking down anywhere, but the fuel does disappear. I finally gave up and just considered it normal and due to evaporation. You're the first really knowledgeable person I've run across that insists it isn't normal. Its not exactly a topic that comes up often.
I wonder if this is a problem specific to this carburetor? How about it guys do your 2100s stink up the garage? Or just the opposite- do any of them NOT stink up the garage? Inquiring minds want to know!

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post #42 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-30-2018, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
these days, if i need to tune a carbed engine, it takes me about as long to tune one, as it does for modern tech to set up the equipment and measure the gas levels.

maybe one day i will pick up an inexpensive exhaust gas analyzer, who knows.
I can tuna fish w/mayo. I can tune a Holley 5 ways on a Sunday.
What I can't do is tuna anything when the temp is under 50* before it even starts, within a few revolutions adjust choke and ratios then continue adjusting as it warms like a monkey under the hood the rest of the day, can you? and a trailer hitch to pull the sniffer

EFI will ever increase just like electronic ignitions.
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post #43 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-30-2018, 12:38 AM Thread Starter
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I'm curious if anyone has gone EFI and regretted it?

I'm not a purist, but i also feel guilty that I'm killing the classic touch?

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post #44 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-30-2018, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by MUSTANG65FBK View Post
"......Lastly, in terms of the "classic car feel", I don't know of any mustangs having had EFI back in the day, I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but the Corvette and other vehicles have had EFI since the 1950's and even before.
Some of the Corvette's did have a fuel injection option. But it was a mechanical fuel injection, not EFI.


Quote:
Originally Posted by panabax View Post
"........I will gladly admit that I suck at tuning carbs. :-)....."
I sucked at walking when I was 1 year old. But I kept working at it.

Tuning a carburetor is no different than any other kind of learning. It's not black magic, even on the Webers. They are pretty complicated, but still follow the same physics that a Autolite 2100 does. The knowledge gained on the most simple carburetor is directly transferrable to the most complex carburetor

Quote:
Originally Posted by cavboy78 View Post
".......Let's also not forget, for the purists, this this is not an irreversible mod. ......"
I don't keep my vintage cars "period correct" for the next owner. I do it because I get the most enjoyment from them when the total owning and driving experience is identical to what I enjoyed when cars were new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1 Driver View Post
".......The garage will stink for maybe 5 days until the fuel bowl dries up, and then no more stink..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1 Driver View Post
"........let me ask you, how long does it take your fuel bowl to dry up? I mean, eventually it should- right? ......"

there's a big difference between the float bowl drying up in 5 days, and it drying up eventually. Yes they will dry up eventually, and when they do, it will look like these carbs pictured below. They were from a Yamaha XS-1100. The owner had to go on a forced vacation at a Federal lock-up for 3-5 years with time off for good behavior. When he got back to the shed where he parked his bike, it wouldn't start, so he brought it to our shop.

(....Notice that two of the carbs are clean. That's because the bike was leaned at a steep angle (toward the right side) up against the interior wall of a storage shed. All the gas drained out of the 2 left hand carbs into the other two before it could dry out. Photos show the carburetor assembly flipped over and upside down, so the right-most carb in the photo is actually the left-most carb....)

If your float bowls in a stock Autolite are drying out without leaving a nasty residue, then they are drying out too soon. There is a reason, and it can be fixed, either by repair or replacement with a good carburetor. I don't know what was the fault in your carb, but it did have one (or more) that was causing the rapid evaporation and garage smell. Fixing the fault seems to me to be easier than ditching the carb in favor of EFI.

I drove my parents Fairlane in high school (Sr. '69), and I'm pretty sure it had an Autolite 2100 on it. No stinky garage.


Z
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post #45 of 193 (permalink) Old 01-30-2018, 08:53 AM
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I went with Ford fuel injection using an A9L out of a 1989 mustang, a cobra EFI intake (which will just BARELY clear a '65 hood) 30# injectors and an intank fuel injection pump with return line. This is on a 347.

At the time I did it, the TBI systems were not available...so I had less choices.

The car gets 25 MPG all day long, starts on the first crank, never has heat soak or vapor lock problems. It's just a lot better car to drive.

My carb left me beside the road at least 3 times. Once on a blown power valve and twice on vapor lock situations.

The EFI has left me beside the road ONCE. If you go Ford EFI, keep a spare TFI module in your trunk along with the tools to change it...as when they go out...they go our with no warning.

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