C4 Transmission Question - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
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C4 Transmission Question

I am building a 1970 fastback with a 351 Cleveland motor. If I use a c4 with a 164 tooth bellhousing (case fill), am I likely to run into any fit issues with headers or anything else?

Thank you all for any insight!
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 07:19 PM
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Well that is a hard one, as a C4 was not ever put behind a Cleveland, it was usually an FMX or C6. For that matter, I can say I ran a C4 behind my Cleveland in a '77 F150 for 20 years with no issues, and it did have headers and a shift kit. It was not a case fill. As for being able to fit...it should fit in your car, but fitting headers is another story. And then if you have power steering, oh-boy. You may be breaking new ground. I am sure someone may chime in with more details, but you may be telling us what works. Are you using case fill for strength, or because you have it? I ask only because a 157 bell will definitely give you more room. Keep us posted.


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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 08:29 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you for the insight. I have not bought the trans yet....Trying to decide whether I should buy it or wait to see if I can find the 157T version. And I took the power steering off the car and went with a roller idler in part because it’s one less problem for headers and because it is one less thing to leak.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 08:49 PM
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157 C4's are plentiful, and usually cheap. I just recently rebuilt a few for the first time. They are pretty easy. I would suggest you go with a 71 and up. 65/6 had the wonky green dot shift pattern, 67-69 had normal shift pattern, but were known to have failure (weakness) with about 400 HP. 70 was the upgrade, but had a unique input shaft with 26 splines on both ends, 71 and up went with 24/26 spline input shaft. These are the ones to build. Some even build the C5, as it has improved oiling. Go with 71 and up, a 40-2 transgo shift kit, and an "H" servo. I pulled the "correct" 70 trans out of my 70 coupe and installed the C4 that was in my F150 for 20 years. It is happy in the stang, and still gets a second gear chirp of the tires upon shifting to second. I also rebuilt a 67-69 trans, and had some difficulty finding thrust washers (supposedly obsolete-but found on EBAY), and the correct pump. I was told they are becoming very difficult to repair and they suggested I upgrade my case with internals from a 70 up- pump/ and guts. And that was from one of the biggest Trans parts suppliers in San Antonio.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 08:58 PM
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summit and jegs carry several C4's, both their own and some by TCI, and other manufacturers. They will tell you if it is small or large bell.

https://www.summitracing.com/search/...1&N=4294923966

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/t...view/make/ford


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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 09:14 PM
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Since a "big bell" C4 and an FMX have the same bellhousing size and the rest of the transmissions are very comparable I think it's a pretty safe wager that designed to fit a 351C and an FMX should fit.
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2018, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you for the very helpful replies. I just may wait a while longer for a 157 bell c4 to come along and rebuild it so as not to risk a fit issue.
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2018, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Ironmanwi View Post
Thank you for the very helpful replies. I just may wait a while longer for a 157 bell c4 to come along and rebuild it so as not to risk a fit issue.
You can use either the big bell or small bell on the c4. The bell housing is the difference not the transmission. Look for a case fill but I have even seen the Pan fill style using the small bell housing but it does look funny. Small bell uses the 10.5 inch converter pattern and 157 tooth flexplate.

Last edited by cmefly; 03-30-2018 at 04:47 AM.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2018, 08:15 AM Thread Starter
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Cmefly - thank you for the reply. So you wouldn’t expect issues with headers on the 164 tooth bell?
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2018, 08:33 AM
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Cmefly - thank you for the reply. So you wouldnít expect issues with headers on the 164 tooth bell?
Nope. but I do like the 157 bell better for the little bit of extra room. If you find a big bell trans you can change it to the small bell housing as the small bell from the weaker 64-69 trans will fit the stronger 70-82 c4. I have had the 164 pan fill trans in my 65 falcon and 65,67 Mustang as well with no issues with headers.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2018, 09:34 AM Thread Starter
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That is really good information. I appreciate it.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2018, 10:29 AM
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coupster,
I've run an early 24 spline C4 (up to '69) in my drag race Shelby for 44 years with 500 or more hp. I've never broken a part , just normal clutch and band wear over that many years. Mid 11s to high tens depending on the particular engine I was using. Proper shift timing ( valve body ) is the key on a C4. I use a Winters full manual valve body ( not practical for the street) and my original "C" servo.

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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2018, 05:16 PM
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I have a 351C (with headers) and a C4 in my 1968 Coupe. I don't know how to tell which bellhousing I have, but it all fits. There are some tight spots, but it fits and works fine. If someone tells me what to look for on the bellhousing I can check it for you this evening and report back.

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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-31-2018, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT350HR View Post
coupster,
I've run an early 24 spline C4 (up to '69) in my drag race Shelby for 44 years with 500 or more hp. I've never broken a part , just normal clutch and band wear over that many years. Mid 11s to high tens depending on the particular engine I was using. Proper shift timing ( valve body ) is the key on a C4. I use a Winters full manual valve body ( not practical for the street) and my original "C" servo.
That is great, I cannot say I have broken one...maybe burnt up a few! I am just learning how to fix them. I am glad to hear that they are plenty strong as I am planning to using one in a 65 falcon. I also have a few of the later versions to build. I had difficulty with thrust washer and pump availability. Definitely slowed the rebuilding process. But I just got that resolved when the brown truck stopped by. Now, I am ready to re-assemble. I have an H and an A servo available and I have installed the trans go shift kit. I think it will get the H for this build.


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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-31-2018, 05:39 PM
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That is great, I cannot say I have broken one...maybe burnt up a few! I am just learning how to fix them. I am glad to hear that they are plenty strong as I am planning to using one in a 65 falcon. I also have a few of the later versions to build. I had difficulty with thrust washer and pump availability. Definitely slowed the rebuilding process. But I just got that resolved when the brown truck stopped by. Now, I am ready to re-assemble. I have an H and an A servo available and I have installed the trans go shift kit. I think it will get the H for this build.
use the small bell housing on the 65 falcon as the tunnel and engine compartment is tighter then the 65 Mustang. The big bell will fit but the top bolts on the trans are difficult to install. I used a shorter bolt on the top. Crites makes some cool headers that fit great and FPA has some also for the Falcon.
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