need help with dazecar clutch kit - Page 2 - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
Day, I don't mean any disrespect
No disrespect taken, It's all-good. My business is basically word of mouth so I just wanted to shed my opinion on the situation, especially given the public nature of this forum.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
The slave in my opinion does not have the throw for proper clutch actuation. It really should have an extra 1/4 to 1/2in travel in my opinion though. I did some digging and couldn't find a slave that would give more without presenting other issues though..
That CNC is actually good for more throw. You can easily get 1.25" out of it with out damaging it or pushing it past its tolerances, and if you went with more than 1.25Ē that would be way to much IMHO. The issue comes in getting enough fluid from a MC to get the extra stroke at the SC. The easiest way to fix this is to use a MC with a bigger bore. A 7/8" bore MC of the same stile as I sell will give you 1.2" of stroke at the SC. Problem is that with that extra fluid volume pedal effort goes up and the clutch becomes more sensitive. In other words there is less pedal stroke to transition from engaged to disengage. This negatively impacts how the clutch feels and makes the vehicle harder to drive.

If going with a bigger bore is not going to work than the next option would be to find a MC with more stroke. More stroke at the MC = more stroke at the SC. Problem is finding one that is compact enough to fit in the tight area around the brake MC and have a remote reservoir. There are not many options out there. After much research the wilwood unit had the remote reservoir and "enough stroke" and I could not find anything with more that met all the criteria.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post

That being said, I've read quite a few threads now on the wilwood clutch MC's failing/leaking. Hopefully we are just hearing from the minority.
I have seen a failure from time to time (maybe 5 in the last 10 years) but in all cases except one the issue came from improper installation. The first issue was an improperly aligned pushrod. In those cases the installer did not make sure the pushrod was roughly parallel with the bore of the MC and it created side loading.

The other times I have seen an issue was on preloaded hydraulic pressure. In other words they over tightened the adjustment on the MC pushrod to the point where the MC was always slightly engaged with the clutch pedal all the way up. (Adjustment to the MC pushrod is only there to adjust pedal height and should never pressurize the system. The second issue I have seen that causes the same problem is where the installer failed to bottom out the SC piston in the SC. If its not all the way bottomed out the pressureplate will apply pressure to the hydraulics.

In both cases the result is the same if, in the resting position, there is pressure in the hydraulics the MC will prematurely fail.

The one issue I mentioned above where the MC was simply defective, Wilwood replaced it no questions asked.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
I am curious though, how many people are running a return spring from the slave bracket to the clutch fork?
Both springs should be removed. You don't need the one at the SC or the one at the pedal. It is now just like a brake system where no return spring is required. The pressure plate is what moves everything back to the unpressurized resting position.

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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 12:26 PM
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too close to header will heat the clutch fluid to vapor point, no clutch. I do not understand what everyone likes about hydraulic clutch linkages? use th stock Mustang parts and you know it is going to work. Most anyone makes headers to clear the stock linkage. Push the easy button!

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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by lincoln62 View Post
too close to header will heat the clutch fluid to vapor point, no clutch. I do not understand what everyone likes about hydraulic clutch linkages? use th stock Mustang parts and you know it is going to work. Most anyone makes headers to clear the stock linkage. Push the easy button!
Well if you’re like me, going from a c4 to a T5, and never having had any z bar linkages to work with, then going with a hydraulic or cable clutch seems like the only way to go.
Heck, I’ve never even seen a complete setup of a z bar so I don’t even know how to assemble one if I ever got all the parts.

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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DazeCars View Post

That CNC is actually good for more throw. You can easily get 1.25" out of it with out damaging it or pushing it past its tolerances, and if you went with more than 1.25Ē that would be way to much IMHO. The issue comes in getting enough fluid from a MC to get the extra stroke at the SC. The easiest way to fix this is to use a MC with a bigger bore. A 7/8" bore MC of the same stile as I sell will give you 1.2" of stroke at the SC. Problem is that with that extra fluid volume pedal effort goes up and the clutch becomes more sensitive. In other words there is less pedal stroke to transition from engaged to disengage. This negatively impacts how the clutch feels and makes the vehicle harder to drive.

If going with a bigger bore is not going to work than the next option would be to find a MC with more stroke. More stroke at the MC = more stroke at the SC. Problem is finding one that is compact enough to fit in the tight area around the brake MC and have a remote reservoir. There are not many options out there. After much research the wilwood unit had the remote reservoir and "enough stroke" and I could not find anything with more that met all the criteria.

Both springs should be removed. You don't need the one at the SC or the one at the pedal. It is now just like a brake system where no return spring is required. The pressure plate is what moves everything back to the unpressurized resting position.
That was exactly the issue I ran into when I went looking and I'm sure is why you chose that particular Wilwood master. There isn't anything compact that has additional stroke to move the slave without getting massive in size or changing pedal feel. Some have recommended the ford ranger master, but it too doesn't seem to have the travel needed.

Thanks for that! I'll leave off the springs.
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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 05:54 PM
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I do not understand what everyone likes about hydraulic clutch linkages?
First let me start by saying whatever system an individual is running, if it works well, fits in their budget and most importantly they are happy with it than thatís the system they should be running. So if youíre happy with the z-bar then fantastic. With that said I can give some insite as to why hydraulic, which is IMHO superior weather itís my kit or someone elseís.

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too close to header will heat the clutch fluid to vapor point, no clutch.
You hit the nail on the head issues with a hydraulic clutch are usually the result of an improper instillation. Hydraulics have been used for breaking for about 100 years and there is a reason brake lines are all routed away from heat sources. If the hydraulic lines are properly run this will never be an issue.


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use the stock Mustang parts and you know it is going to work.
while that is true it may or may not be best given the application. IF you are NOT running a T5 and you have OEM equipment than yes the z-bar is the easiest and probably most effective way to go however it does have two drawbacks. The first is a mechanical pivot that wares with time. As long as you keep it maintained and replace the bushings as they begin to become loose it will function well but a lot of people let the bushings go to long and that can reduce the smooth action of the linkage, which causes clutch chatter. The second issue is the z-bar pivots on the engine block or bellhousing (depending on the setup) and in high torque applications as you are clutching the engine can rock, again eliminating the smooth action of the z-bar, resulting in clutch chatter. Even with those two issues there is little to no reason, IMHO, to ditch the z-bar in a 4-speed application especially if you upgrade it with heim joints and such.

With all that said going to a T5 you are no longer using stock parts and stock parts are no longer the BEST option. Its more complicated and using the OEM clutch linkage is not always going to give you the best result. There are three main ways to install a T5 in a classic Mustang while maintaining the z-bar: OEM 4-speed bellhousing with T5 adapter, T5 bellhousing with old school clutch fork and pivot block, or Aftermarket bellhousing such as a Quicktime.

If you go with the OEM bellhousing and adapter plate this is probably the best way to maintain the z-bar, have good clutch action, and keep costs to a minimum, however it has one major flaw. The issue is early Ford transmissions had much lower tolerances in relation to the input shaft, upwards of .015". This meant the bellhousings could be out of alignment by as much as .015 with no issues. The T5 on the other hand has an input shaft tolerance of .005" so if your old school bellhousing is off by more than .005" (some are some arenít) not to mention any tolerance issues with the adapter, you will have premature failure of the inputs shaft bearing and or the pilot bearing (most common the pilot bearing) This can be fixed by using a dial indicator to take measurements and shimming the T5 adaptor but most installers don't do this step.

The second solution is to retrofit a T5 bell with an old school clutch fork. I do not personally like this option as they are way less smooth as a hydraulic clutch and not even as smooth as an OEM 4-speed setup IMHO.

The third option of an aftermarket bellhousing designed specifically to work on a T5 AND use the stock linkage is probably functional the best but big $$ so it just depends on your budget.

Because of the drawbacks to all three of these options most people go with either a hydraulic clutch or a cable clutch.

As I said before "hydraulic... is IMHO superior weather its my kit or someone elseís." There is a reason brakes went from mechanical to hydraulic. Once a hydraulic system is set up and working properly they are relatively maintenance free and the action is smooth. I would even go so far as to say a properly set up hydraulic clutch is not only lighter pedal effort and smoother action than the z-bar but you also get better clutch feel translated through the system (the change in pressure you feel against your foot as the clutch goes from engaged to disengaged)

Most of the problems people have with a hydraulic clutch happen in getting it set up correctly, and few happen after the fact due to an issue in the way it was set up, but a correctly set up system should function flawlessly with fantastic longevity just as brakes do. I have had a hydraulic clutch on my Galaxie for over 8 years and in my Mustang for more than 10, without issue.

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Originally Posted by lincoln62 View Post
Most anyone makes headers to clear the stock linkage.
Again a true statement but no all headers will clear the z-bar and the headers that don't clear become an option with a cable or hydraulic clutch. This is even more important if the car is not running OEM steering. If the car has been upgraded to rack and pinion or even a Bourgson type box than having more header options is a good thing. Basically the further you move fro stock the less likely stock options are to function the best/simplest.

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Originally Posted by lincoln62 View Post
Push the easy button!
While that may be the easiest and best option for your car it does not mean that that is a true statement for someone elseís car.

Again this is my opinion, but it is substantiated with a lot of experience and Mustang knowledge and the bottom line is as long as a person is happy with the way there car performs than that IS the correct setup for them regardless of which one they go with.

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