Question for Engine Gurus, Timing/Balancer - Vintage Mustang Forums
 8Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Lost Creek WV
Posts: 243
Garage
Question for Engine Gurus, Timing/Balancer

Back story: 66 Convertible. C4 trans, thought I had the original 289. Pulled motor for rebuild and everything stamped 302. 302 crank, heads etc. Casting on block for a 1969 302. So, not original.

Problem: Machined block .20 over. Installed a Comp Cams Nostalgia kit. The timing setup is a double chain as opposed to original single chain. The smaller pulley has three locations to install on shaft where original only had one. From our research we used the rounded looking middle slot, which said it was for 0 degrees or TDC. Everything lined up perfect and number 1 piston is verified at TDC.

The timing pointer on my motor was missing, so I replaced it. Bought a stock replacement harmonic balancer. It is speced for a 289 as I bought it before I knew what I had. Visually, looks identical to what I took off. It is a 28oz. When installed, the pointer does not point at 0, but at about 9 degrees retarded. I slid the old crusty balancer on and it does line up perfectly at TDC on the timing marker.

Searched on Summit and found a different model number from same manufacturer. According to specs it is for a 1969 302 as opposed to the 1966 289 balancer I have. Same weight and bolt pattern (3 bolt). So, I ordered it. The new unit is slightly larger (around .10 inches). It has not come in and will not try to install until this weekend anyway.

My searches on here make me question if the new balancer will be any different as I've read they are interchangeable.

Anyone have any input or suggestions? Is there indeed a difference in the balancers?

Thank you.

1966 Mustang Convertible
BigJoeWV is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 11:17 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Tunkhannock PA
Posts: 19,875
After 50 years things happen to a car as youíre finding out. Up to and including 69, Ford used a 3 bolt balancer and at least on the 289, the timing chain cover had a cast on pointer for timing. Later on the cover was made universal with a bolt on timing pointer. I believe there are 2 different pointers used on engines withthe lower house on the passenger side. It may be easier to look and buy a new pointer rather then exchange the balancer. I put a GT40P in my 66 a couple years back. The swap balancer I bought has 3 sets of timing marks engraved on it.
2nd 66 and Grimbrand like this.

Tom

One thing great about getting older. A life in prison sentence is less of a deterrence

Huskinhano is offline  
post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Lost Creek WV
Posts: 243
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskinhano View Post
After 50 years things happen to a car as youíre finding out. Up to and including 69, Ford used a 3 bolt balancer and at least on the 289, the timing chain cover had a cast on pointer for timing. Later on the cover was made universal with a bolt on timing pointer. I believe there are 2 different pointers used on engines withthe lower house on the passenger side. It may be easier to look and buy a new pointer rather then exchange the balancer. I put a GT40P in my 66 a couple years back. The swap balancer I bought has 3 sets of timing marks engraved on it.
I hear ya. My pointer was missing totally. It is a bolt on unit and everything went right back on with the Scott Drake replacement.

Another questions. Do the marks even need to line up. Could I just use a silver sharpy or timing tape for that matter and set a 'new' tdc wherever it falls?
Grimbrand likes this.

1966 Mustang Convertible
BigJoeWV is offline  
 
post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 11:29 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Tunkhannock PA
Posts: 19,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJoeWV View Post
I hear ya. My pointer was missing totally. It is a bolt on unit and everything went right back on with the Scott Drake replacement.

Another questions. Do the marks even need to line up. Could I just use a silver sharpy or timing tape for that matter and set a 'new' tdc wherever it falls?
You could, that would work but just make sure to adjust that difference at the 10-16 degree make to set the timing. Youíre not setting the timing to TDC.

Tom

One thing great about getting older. A life in prison sentence is less of a deterrence

Huskinhano is offline  
post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 11:31 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Tunkhannock PA
Posts: 19,875
Hereís a link for timing pointers.

https://www.npdlink.com/search/produ...t=200001&year=

Tom

One thing great about getting older. A life in prison sentence is less of a deterrence

Huskinhano is offline  
post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 09:20 PM
Senior Member
 
awhtx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The Hill Country of Central Texas
Posts: 9,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJoeWV View Post
Could I just use a silver sharpy or timing tape for that matter and set a 'new' tdc wherever it falls?

If you have triple or quadruple checked and confirmed that TDC on the balancer does not line up with the pointer at true TDC I'd get a timing tape and install it. Timing tapes are extremely handy with their enhanced range of timing marks.
awhtx is offline  
post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 10:00 PM
Senior Member
 
Grimbrand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Sedgwick, Kansas
Posts: 757
A silver sharpie works great. Definitely put the big "Zero" mark at TDC. You can find that easy enough - and it doesn't make a difference whether you're on the compression or start of intake when you make your mark, because both are the same spot, as far as the crankshaft goes. using a dowel in the #1 spark plug hole to see where the piston's at works pretty well.

When you set your ignition timing, THEN you have to be sure you're on compression!

So long as your new mark matches the pointer, you should be good to go.
Huskinhano likes this.
Grimbrand is online now  
post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-18-2019, 10:08 PM
Senior Member
 
2nd 66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New York
Posts: 9,643
Garage
A few pics would help a lot to see what your dealing with. For me I'd really want a factory timing pointer to line up with a known good set of timing marks on the balancer
Huskinhano likes this.


Brad
2nd 66 is offline  
post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 09:27 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Eastern Maryland
Posts: 269
Garage
You need to use a 302 balancer and your new balancer is for a 289, So when you get your 302 balancer it will be fine as long as the weight is right. I think the difference in the 289 vs the 302 balancer, Is the 289 and 302 have a different stroke, This means the crank is different. When you look it up, The balancer for the 302 from 68 up is different then the balancer for the 289 from 68 down.
BW66 is offline  
post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Lost Creek WV
Posts: 243
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by BW66 View Post
You need to use a 302 balancer and your new balancer is for a 289, So when you get your 302 balancer it will be fine as long as the weight is right. I think the difference in the 289 vs the 302 balancer, Is the 289 and 302 have a different stroke, This means the crank is different. When you look it up, The balancer for the 302 from 68 up is different then the balancer for the 289 from 68 down.
That is what I'm hoping. As I stated, I had to put the timing pointer on as it was missing. Bolted right up no problem. The old crusty balancer that was on the car lines up perfectly at TDC with the pointer. The engine is definitely at TDC. We checked multiple times.

The new balancer should be here today or tomorrow. However, a broken right leg is limiting my mobility right now and can't drive. The stang is at my in-laws awesome garage so I probably won't be there until Saturday.

Thanks for you help. I'm thinking it is probably just an incorrect model. At least I hope so!

1966 Mustang Convertible
BigJoeWV is offline  
post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 09:54 AM
Senior Member
 
Grimbrand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Sedgwick, Kansas
Posts: 757
Sorry to hear about the leg, BigJoe! Hope that gets well fast.

The dampers for the early 289's and 302's are pretty well interchangeable. In the early 70s I think, they did go to a 4 bolt pattern for the pulleys instead of the early 3 bolt. Even a 5.0 damper will bolt up - but those have a 50 oz imbalance instead of 28.

Best wishes!
BigJoeWV likes this.
Grimbrand is online now  
post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Lost Creek WV
Posts: 243
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimbrand View Post
Sorry to hear about the leg, BigJoe! Hope that gets well fast.

The dampers for the early 289's and 302's are pretty well interchangeable. In the early 70s I think, they did go to a 4 bolt pattern for the pulleys instead of the early 3 bolt. Even a 5.0 damper will bolt up - but those have a 50 oz imbalance instead of 28.

Best wishes!
Thank you sir!
That is my issue. Everything I read says interchangeable, but the new one is off by 9 degrees while the old one is dead on.

1966 Mustang Convertible
BigJoeWV is offline  
post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-19-2019, 08:31 PM
Senior Member
 
awhtx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The Hill Country of Central Texas
Posts: 9,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJoeWV View Post
the new one is off by 9 degrees while the old one is dead on.

I would set both balancers side-by-side with the crankshaft keyways at exactly the same point- say 12 o'clock. Then compare where the TDC mark is on each one. There should be an obvious difference in the location of the TDC marks. Apparently your "new" balancer was assembled incorrectly.
awhtx is offline  
post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 08:04 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Eastern Maryland
Posts: 269
Garage
I know what you mean, It will bolt on, But when I checked Rock Auto under 68 they showed a different balancer for the 289 then the 302.
BW66 is offline  
post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 02-20-2019, 11:05 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Anaheim
Posts: 1,210
The "configuration" of the 302 (imbalance in the outer ring) and 289 ( imbalance on the inner hub) is the reason. If the timing marks are off by 9*s , the outer ring was not put on correctly. Not a big surprise on an aftermarket part these days. Yes they should ( and do normally) interchange until the change to four bolt pulleys in '70.

'66 GT350H-3 time cover car - Car Craft July'77,Modified Mustangs and Fords Feb2011 ( w/article), Mustang Monthly June 2014. Bracket raced by me for the last 44 years. Yes it is a real one.
'68.5 R code GT fastback
'67 Ranchero 408W -427 glass hood
'78 F350 "Oleynik" car hauler
Ford Experimental parts collector
GT350HR is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Vintage Mustang Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Installing flexplate, quick question... cruising68 Vintage Mustang Forum 3 10-15-2018 02:10 PM
Classic Mustang Question Davew01 Vintage Mustang Forum 35 09-02-2018 07:22 AM
Thanks for the Help, and a quick A/C Comp. Question MustangMike50 Vintage Mustang Forum 2 02-19-2018 12:51 PM
Question about VIN JonnybravoM3 Vintage Mustang Forum 23 01-27-2018 11:04 PM
1967 Fastback Brake Upgrade question Flyboy67 Vintage Mustang Forum 5 12-19-2017 10:29 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome