Need Engine Gurus!!! - Page 5 - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #61 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-02-2019, 12:19 AM
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The situation Scarlet describes sounds a bit far-fetched but I'm sure not going to say it's not possible. I second turning the engine by hand when this happens. (Hot) If on the other hand it turns over VERY freely, most likely the valves are too tight. I've run into that myself but mine would actually run OK until it was shut off (to get some gas) and then obviously had no compression when I tried to restart. In any case, you've stated you've turned it more than a little when cold so you should have a good feel for it being easier or not when well warmed up.
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post #62 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 08:15 AM
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I turned it over by hand last night, everything looked good. No weird sounds or difficulties in spinning it. It's definitely heat related. Could be ignition, but I think it's something mechanical as the very first time it happened I gave it more throttle while it was bogging and it reacted.


The sound I heard could have very well been a header or something but It sure sounded like a valve snapping shut to me.


I am going to talk to the machine shop today and see if they have any ideas, but I'm wondering if it could be something as simple as air bubbles in the heads that are keeping them from cooling. I'm going to get a coolant purge tool and try it again.
Any word from the shop? Let us know when you put it back together and have another go at it...

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post #63 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 09:54 PM
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Roller or flat tapper can? If flat tapper you need more zinc in the oil than with a roller cam.
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post #64 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 07:48 AM
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Sorry, doesn’t sound like cam or valve train related. You said when engine gets hot it falls flat....sounds like a bearing issue. Need to recheck the mains.
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post #65 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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Have you tried starting it again once it dies? How does it turn over? Easy? Or labored? Could the click you're hearing be your headers cooling and contracting? I get all kinds of pings after shutting down do to contraction. If your engine turns over well after dying, have you verified spark after the incident occurs? The electronic module could be defective and getting heat soaked and shutting down on you.

I started it again this morning. Ran great again, but for less time. Probably only 5 minutes, and the temp needle didn't move until it started running really rough again. It stayed running rough longer this time (instead of bogging down so much that it would kill), and I tried to give it a little throttle to keep it running. It would react to throttle, but not great. After it died, the heads weren't hot enough to burn your hands. In fact, I could hold my hands on them (the thermostat hadn't opened yet). So now I don't know if it's heat (or sticky valves) related at all. Could be faulty electronics in the ignition as you mention. The coil and ignition box are away from any heat on the fender well where the battery would normally go, but that's not to say they aren't getting hot internally...
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post #66 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 03:46 PM Thread Starter
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Did you ever mention what pistons you were running? Forged? hypereutectic? For example, if you have forged pistons but your machine shop provided cylinder wall clearance spec'd for hyper's, you could have the pistons expanding and starting to bind on the walls. Then when it cools they are free again. Hypers can run really tight, like .0015-.002 clearance. Forged pistons can range from .0025-.0065 depending on application and piston material. See page 5 of the uem catalog which discusses alloys and general cylinder wall clearances on application. You'll see that it ranges widely. https://uempistons.com/file/7-Icon+Catalog.pdf The same could be said for the top-ring gap. Many hyper pistons require a greater top ring gap. The summit brand hyper pistons I ran in mine wanted the same gap factor as the keith black ones Which you can find here #2---- Clearance Requirements for Hypereutectic Pistons. With it bogging upon getting hot, it sorta sounds like things are expanding and binding within the engine. Next time you run it and you shut it off due to bog, immediately try turning it over by hand and see how stiff it is. Has your temp gauge shown it to get hot?

The pistons are hypers and the top ring was clearanced to .018" to .020" as instructed. After I ran it today, hot, it felt about normal to turn over with a wrench. The temp gauge did not move before it quit this time. The thermostat didn't open. Water in the radiator just started to get warm and I could still put my hand on the heads after it quit. After it sat around for a minute and the heat made its way into the intake, the temp gauge moved up to about 160.
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post #67 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 04:05 PM Thread Starter
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The situation Scarlet describes sounds a bit far-fetched but I'm sure not going to say it's not possible. I second turning the engine by hand when this happens. (Hot) If on the other hand it turns over VERY freely, most likely the valves are too tight. I've run into that myself but mine would actually run OK until it was shut off (to get some gas) and then obviously had no compression when I tried to restart. In any case, you've stated you've turned it more than a little when cold so you should have a good feel for it being easier or not when well warmed up.

It was definitely not easy to turn over when warmed up. And I did double check the valve lash when hot, and it wasn't changing.
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post #68 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 04:08 PM Thread Starter
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Any word from the shop? Let us know when you put it back together and have another go at it...

Allen

I did speak with them yesterday, and they had a few ideas (head gaskets, etc.) but nothing really jumped out. I started it again today to check the cooling system and although it quit before the thermostat opened, there was no obvious issues like bad head gaskets, wrong water pump, etc.)


So far, I'm still at a loss. Starting to think it could be something to do with the ignition now as this last time it bogged down and quit before it got very hot at all...
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post #69 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-04-2019, 10:15 PM
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So when cold it feels easy to roll over, but after you ran it, it provided enough resistance to describe it as "definitely not easy to turn over when warmed up"? Did it feel like it was hard to turn because of compression or as if something was binding? If you are so inclined, my next step would be to pull the plugs when cold and rotate it over by hand ( with a wrench on the crank nut) and get a good feel of how it rotates with no compression. Use this as a base line. Then i'd run it and pull the plugs again. Be careful not to burn yourself, use welding gloves or something, but pull all the plugs as fast as you can so the engine stays hot and try rotating it again. If it feels very reluctant to turn over when warm, even without plugs in it, that would seem to point towards mechanical binding due to expansion of something.

Do you have another distributor you could throw in to test the ignition theory? It sounds like your ignition is a trick set up, it may be defective. Its reasonable that it could fail in such a way that as power flows through it, it begins to malfunction. It could still be providing spark but going out of wack with when the spark is occurring. To test this i'd fire it up, if it starts up and sounds good shut it off immediately but then turn the key to "on" and leave it in the "on" position for however long you feel it takes for your issues to start occuring. After the determined time try firing it up again. if it runs but now runs rough, that would seem to indicate ignition issues after it's been on for some time.
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post #70 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 01:15 PM
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Just a thought. The bent valve is a big red flag. The engine runs cold, but does not run hot. There must be binding somewhere in engine moving parts. I would consider pulling the thermostat and run engine with radiator cap off to observe coolant flow in top radiator tank. There should be vigorous flow from left side of top tank. The engine would warm up slowly, and you could record engine temp every minute. It would also confirm water pump is running in the right direction. It would probably purge any air pockets. See how long engine runs without a thermostat. It will probably not get hotter than 170 degrees. If it continues to rise in temperature without a thermostat there could a blocked passage.

I would also check the coefficient of thermal expansion of the different metal moving parts. There might be a mismatch. The engine might be machined too tight.
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post #71 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 10:12 PM Thread Starter
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So when cold it feels easy to roll over, but after you ran it, it provided enough resistance to describe it as "definitely not easy to turn over when warmed up"? No, it feels the same. With the compression it isn't easy to turn over by hand hot or cold. Did it feel like it was hard to turn because of compression or as if something was binding? If you are so inclined, my next step would be to pull the plugs when cold and rotate it over by hand ( with a wrench on the crank nut) and get a good feel of how it rotates with no compression. Use this as a base line. Then i'd run it and pull the plugs again. Be careful not to burn yourself, use welding gloves or something, but pull all the plugs as fast as you can so the engine stays hot and try rotating it again. If it feels very reluctant to turn over when warm, even without plugs in it, that would seem to point towards mechanical binding due to expansion of something. This would definitely be a good diagnosis to try.
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Do you have another distributor you could throw in to test the ignition theory? I do have an old points distributor and coil that I am thinking to swap on to try. I could at least eliminate one if the variables. I will just have to wire it in since it requires a resister wire. It sounds like your ignition is a trick set up, it may be defective. Its reasonable that it could fail in such a way that as power flows through it, it begins to malfunction. It could still be providing spark but going out of wack with when the spark is occurring. To test this i'd fire it up, if it starts up and sounds good shut it off immediately but then turn the key to "on" and leave it in the "on" position for however long you feel it takes for your issues to start occuring. After the determined time try firing it up again. if it runs but now runs rough, that would seem to indicate ignition issues after it's been on for some time. I did try leaving the key on to see if any of the components were getting hot, but nothing was. If this theory is correct, then it would only be with voltage flowing through them (the coil for example doesn't have any power to it until it is triggered by the CDI.
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post #72 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 11:09 PM
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for the test you're doing running the stock coil at 12v for a short time will probably be OK. It'll only be running for a few minutes. If you do have a ballast resistor laying around i'd still throw it in.
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post #73 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 09:55 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I have eliminated any ignition issues. I forgot that my other Mustang has a 1-wire HEI distributor, so that was an easy hookup. Ran great for a few minutes, got my hopes up, then bogged down and started running really rough. It stayed running this time, and I revved it a couple times which temporarily "fixed" it but would go right back down into a loaded bog. It definitely sounds like something is binding with the heat (although the motor itself isn't running long enough to get real hot). I did notice there was gold/brass looking flakes in the oil. Both on the dipstick and under the valve covers. Not sure if it's just from the break in or something more (probably something more due to my symptoms). I used Clevite bearings, non which would be gold/brass Cam bearings: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cle-sh1321s, Rod bearings: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cle-cb634a208, and main bearings: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cle-ms590p20 (.020/.020 crank) I plastigauged all the bearings during install, but I am thinking that I never checked the thrust...

So what do I do? Pull the pan and start removing mains and rod caps to inspect the bearings? Or should I pull the heads and check the valves/guides?



Last edited by gikort; 04-06-2019 at 10:00 PM.
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post #74 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 10:08 PM
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Gold/Brass colored is NOT good. Didn't you say they installed BRONZE guides? Other potential sources, if you have bronze/brass installed are distributor gear and camshaft thrust plate. The other possibility is crank thrust bearing. Do I remember correctly that this has an automatic behind it? Converter pushing against the flexplate?

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post #75 of 89 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
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Gold/Brass colored is NOT good. Didn't you say they installed BRONZE guides? Other potential sources, if you have bronze/brass installed are distributor gear and camshaft thrust plate. The other possibility is crank thrust bearing. Do I remember correctly that this has an automatic behind it? Converter pushing against the flexplate?

Yes, it does have the bronze guides, and I had problems with sticking valves first go around, but I got the heads rebuilt with new guides and they said the honed them out more so I wouldn't have that issue again, but I still can't rule it out. Might be worth pulling the heads again (PITA) and pulling the valves out to look at them. Both the distributor gear and cam thrust plate are iron so we can rule them out. I'm thinking about pulling the pan and checking the crank thrust bearing to see if there are any obvious wear signs on it.


It is a toploader behind it.
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