New Engine, Valve Seals Leaking? - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 01:00 AM Thread Starter
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New Engine, Valve Seals Leaking?

I have just over 500 miles on my rebuilt 351 Cleveland. I've noticed some smoke from the exhaust off and on. If I stop the car hard, I will typically see a puff of smoke from the right exhaust. I do not see any smoke when I first start the engine.

Today I pulled the intake manifold because it was leaking oil at the back and it likely had a vacuum leak. I looked at the intake valves through the intake ports and it appears there's some oil on the valve stems. I'm thinking this all adds up to leaking valve/umbrella seals, but I'm not sure.

The machine shop who reconditioned the heads installed new umbrella seals. The engine sat on a stand for a few years before I got it into the car and running. I'm wondering if they may have dried out which is causing them to leak?

I've never had this problem before, so I'm not sure what's going on. I would appreciate any thoughts, ideas or experience.

I can post some pictures tomorrow if that might help. I haven't yet reinstalled the intake manifold.

Thanks.

Currently working on a 1970 Mach 1 project. See it here: http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vi...ode-build.html
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 01:21 AM
LSG
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Thumbs Up stem seals

Klutch, why did your shop use umbrellas ? We have much better options available now. LSG
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 09:40 AM
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What oil weight are you running? Last year I tried going to a lighter weight and it smoked. Changed back to 20w-50 vr1 and no smoke, none.

I thought this was weird, but it really likes the 20-50.

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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 10:44 AM
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It was probably pulling oil from the valley, not an uncommon problem in a Cleveland. Use the turkey pan with an 1/8" ring of high quality sealant around each port on both sides of the pan and you'll never have that problem again.
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 11:03 AM
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Whatís the shop say?

Ex-wife,....."You drove how far for that thing?"
Daughter,..."Theres no inside and it stinks."
Friend,......."Dude, thatís a rusted pile."
Son,.........."This old car is cool."

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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LSG View Post
Klutch, why did your shop use umbrellas ? We have much better options available now. LSG
Good questions. I thought about having teflon seals installed, but I have run engines with well over 100,00 miles and the umbrella seals were fine.

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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 1966notch View Post
What oil weight are you running? Last year I tried going to a lighter weight and it smoked. Changed back to 20w-50 vr1 and no smoke, none.

I thought this was weird, but it really likes the 20-50.
I'm running Valvoline VR1 10W-30. Thanks for the suggestion.

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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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It was probably pulling oil from the valley, not an uncommon problem in a Cleveland. Use the turkey pan with an 1/8" ring of high quality sealant around each port on both sides of the pan and you'll never have that problem again.
Thanks for mentioning that. I posted another thread a while back about this and a few people suggested the engine might be sucking oil from the lifter valley. I talked to a guy in my Mustang club who insisted that wasn't possible. (I should listen to you guys and not him!)

I've gone round and round with what intake gaskets to use. Some say always use the turkey pan. Some say never use the turkey pan. I assembled the engine using the Fel Pro performance gaskets and I don't think there were any leaks. However, shortly after driving the car I discovered I had a wiped cam lobe. I used Edelbrock gaskets when I replaced the cam and those were leaking. If a Cleveland can in fact pull oil from the lifter valley into the intake ports, that would explain a lot.

I have a new set of Fel Pro performance gaskets I'm going to use for this job. If I get the oil/smoke issues again, I will try the turkey pan option.

BTW, I bought a can of Permatex "The Right Stuff" to seal the front and rear of the intake. I used that spray can once and, when I tried to use it again, nothing would come out. Then the spout broke off and now it's useless. The last time I bought a can of that stuff, it quit working after a few days. Man, I hear that stuff works well, but at $27,00 a can, it shouldn't break! (OK, end rant.)

Thanks, everyone!

Currently working on a 1970 Mach 1 project. See it here: http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vi...ode-build.html

Last edited by Klutch; 04-06-2019 at 11:25 AM.
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-06-2019, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
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Whatís the shop say?
Not much. They went out of business a few years ago. I don't have any complaints about their machine work. A lot of shops are going belly up these days. The shop I used had been in business for 55 years before shutting down. A new freeway interchange went in right where that shop was. I think that had a lot to do with it.
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 09:08 PM Thread Starter
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Went on a cruise with my Mustang club yesterday. Same problem. The engine blows oil smoke when the car is "nose down". If I stop hard, I get a puff of smoke. If I'm driving down a steep hill, I get smoke. Oh, and it's STILL leaking oil at the back of the intake. I cannot get that area to seal no matter how much sealer I build up. It's an Edelbrock Performer intake and it has a pretty large gap between the intake and the block. Edelbrock says to use sealer and no gaskets on the ends, but it's just not working. (The gap is greater than the thickness of the cork end gaskets.)

I seems whenever there's a force to push oil to the front of the engine, it sucks the oil into one or more intake ports. I guess I'll try the turkey pan gasket. Does it matter if I get the Fel Pro turkey pan or a another brand?

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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 09:34 PM
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By this time, they're probably all made by the same company. I've used the FelPro with iron and aluminum intakes. Toss the paper gaskets that come with it. The aftermarket gaskets could be your problem, they are miles thicker than the turkey pan. Might be worth it to remove the gaskets and set the intake in place, then measure the gap at the front and rear walls. I have a stock 351-4V engine that I could get a dimension from if you need it.

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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 09:48 PM
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I have 4v heads so a different gasket. I was using the Felpro HP and every time I pulled the intake the gasket was split where the printo seal was. I was getting traces of oil at the top of the manifold by the valve cover. I have a RPM Air Gap and with those gaskets you need almost a 3/8" bead on the end seals. I was getting puffs of smoke also. It also was using oil, every time I took the car out the reading would drop on the stick.

This time I went with the stock Felpro turkey pan and no leaks. Almost 25 yrs with a performer and turkey pan and no leaks before I freshened it up. A 100 miles and the reading still on full mark

Larry
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 10:30 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks, Hemikiller. So, you recommend not using the paper gaskets which come with the turkey pan? What do you recommend I used in lieu of those paper gaskets? Or, are you suggesting using just the turkey pan with sealer around each port on both sides? Thanks for offering to measure. I'll order a turkey pan gasket and see how everything fits before I bolt anything together.

Grabber Blu, did you use everything that came with the turkey pan gasket set, to include the paper gaskets and the cork end seals?

I appreciate your input, guys. I'm trying to make the best decision based on others' experiences. It's reassuring to know I'm not the only person experiencing smoke and oil loss with a freshly rebuilt Cleveland.

Currently working on a 1970 Mach 1 project. See it here: http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vi...ode-build.html
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 12:05 AM
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I used the complete Felpro turkey pan set and followed the instructions in the kit. I used the enclosed silicone from the kit. I test fit the paper and turkey pan to see what the end gaps were. The kit has rubber end seals with 3 tabs that fit in the block. The end seal’s were more than adequate to fill the gap. I installed the end seals clean and dry with just a dab of the silicone sealer in the corner’s.

I didn’t use a bead of sealer because the turkey pan bows before the manifold goes on. I felt it would push the bead of sealer down and out before the manifold went down.

Larry
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 03:13 PM
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Check the PCV hose for oil.

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