Thoughts on showing not-so concours cars - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-10-2019, 10:41 PM Thread Starter
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Thoughts on showing not-so concours cars

I posted this in the Concours forum, recognizing as keepers of time capsules, their buy-in to an idea is critical. Let's face it, that well from which concours and survivor cars are drawn is rapidly going dry, significantly for vintage cars. A discussion about color changes on a SAAC concours participant, ( Color Change on Judged concours ) brought out the discussion of cars that aren't quite concours. I believe the current show classes leave a significant number of people from showing their cars, that would otherwise attract a lot of discussion and appreciation for what the cars were, when they were. Let me throw something out there, along these lines... to attract those cars not otherwise concours correct, but faithful representations of their time and owners... a Period-Correct class. To prevent it from just being a Concours spill-over, require no less than 2 major and 3 minor visible, owner-performed modifications. All modifications must be appropriate to within a + - 5 year window of production. Owners must have documentation of the part/modification being available and practiced within the window. Anything not documented or outside that window is a deduction, or basis to not be in the class, i.e. too many modifications.

While I have thought of benefits to the club, owners, and how to determine definitions for this, I will leave that to further discussion. Thoughts?

Tom (Johnson) Kubler, a.k.a. 289fan, HiPo289fan, TJinSA, Fy A. Thyrio, & various other unmentionable names.

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post #2 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-10-2019, 11:21 PM Thread Starter
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The concours post has been deleted.

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post #3 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 12:16 AM
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I think everyone has a different 'tolerance level' for modifications. I love to see a 'perfect' exactly-as-it-was, unmolested Mustang (or any other old car!) but I also love tastefully done changes and yes, improvements to these cars, allowing them to be faster, smoother, better-handling, safer machines.

The question of 'where to draw the line' is very much a personal choice.

For me, the alarms and buzzers start going off when I see Chevy parts. Part of my love affair with these cars is the Ford drivetrains, so when someone hacks up the car to fit a different brand of engine, transmission, etc. under it, that drives me nuts. There are an awful lot of Ford/Mercury/Lincoln parts that can do a fantastic job without having to carve out the fenders or transmission tunnel.

And for what it's worth, I feel the same way about seeing a Ford in a Chevy, or an LS in a Chrysler, etc. Each make has tons of great aftermarket support. Dropping in a motor that doesn't match says to me, "I didn't really care to do any thinking, research or anything like that. I just had this in my garage, and it's mine, so lulz."

If it's a crappy car and you do something nuts - I do appreciate that. 500 Caddy in a Yugo? SURE! That's entertaining too.

You can even make a case for 'oddball' cars that it's near impossible to find parts for. Say, for example, you found a derelict Hudson rotting in a field with no motor? Where are you going to find a good "Twin H" motor these days? I'd be happy to see it fixed up and driving, even if that meant putting a modern engine in it. A lot of the things you'd need to get an original Hudson drivetrain back together are nearly unobtanium, so that just makes sense to me. Do the best you can, right?

But when I see an LS in a Mustang at a show, instead of admiring the big bucks and huge time it took to make things look like they belong together that way, I just walk right by.

Just kind of makes me sad, you know?
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post #4 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 12:28 AM
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You're bound to hear from some of us here up in the balcony peanut throwing gallery, meaning most of the members here don't give a hoot about concours' stuff other than respecting it for what it is (and then again, only as far as it goes). Shouldn't there be some minimum points required at entry? Isn't there? Cannot nearly concours' cars do quite well at regular public entry type shows?

You're suggesting another whole new class then. "Near Concours". A lower division deal. Win a loser's bracket and go home with some hardware.

I can't help but think of the old NFL, the third place team was determined by something called "The Playoff Bowl". If you've never heard of it don't feel alone. Vince Lombardi once said: "It's a hinky-dink football game, held in a hinky-dink town, played by hinky-dink players. That's all [it] is, hinky-dink." A meager number of fans would show up but no one else really wanted to be there, including the vast majority of the players.

Oh well, you wanted opinions and there's mine.
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post #5 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 01:18 AM Thread Starter
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The point I think that is lost is, "what they were, when they were." And defining that. Not open ended modification to showcar of the latest and greatest thrill.
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post #6 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 01:55 AM
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i build cars the way i want them. just because ford put out a good product back then, doesnt mean it cant be made better. there wasnt SEFI systems, electronic ignition, etc back then, like we have today. concours cars are nice, but they are not really practical today for the most part.

in the end one has to build what they want to build, and others be damned. if you want to show the car, then show it.
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post #7 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 07:07 AM
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289fan, I think I understand your point. I have a ton of appreciation for the workmanship done at the Concours level. I also want a car that looks, drives, feels, and sounds like the day it was delivered.

However, itís near impossible to find a 390, GT fastback in nightmist or moss green. I am just starting the tear down of my project and am struggling with the direction I want to go. Do I try to take it back to original, or do I take to ďoriginalĒ as I would have purchased it?

This isnít exactly what you are pitching, but along the same lines. Frankly, I doubt I will ever enter a concours event, which might help my decision. I often wonder if the concours car is a dying breed. IMHO, I think the appeal of originality is mainly held by those that can remember when they were actually original. Letís face it, that crowd is slowly getting smaller as the boomers age. I think the next generation is more into the resto mods. Again, this is just my $.02 and I know there are exceptions.

Bottom line, I like the idea but have a hard time seeing it gain traction.
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post #8 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 08:24 AM
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I'll take an all original car anyday..bumps, bruises, dents, paint loss and all over any over-restored trailer queen...any day of the week..

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post #9 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 08:32 AM
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Yeah, I really like looking at a concourse car, a time capsule of the era. I admire the work that goes into it. I might even have one if I had the garage and financial means to have something of that value sitting there doing nothing.
But, I am at a more practical level and any vehicle I own must be able to be taken out and enjoyed. Besides, there is something deep inside of me that won't let me not take something out and do with it what it was designed to do. It wouldn't do for me to have a perfect version, I would take it out and wear the "new" off of it. Same with my guns, I have a some that have collectors value, everyone of them has been in the field with me. Every revolver I have has rings on the cylinders.
One last comment, some of the concourse vehicles are now more original than when they rolled out of the factory...lol. Not every original vehicle had readily visible inspectors crayon marks, not everyone had orange peel in the paint, you can bet though that a show car will have them.

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post #10 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 08:39 AM
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I admire the time effort and money that goes into a concours car. I have had the pleasure of getting a few rides in some but this is the problem. There performance is lacking with respect to power for me. I have always been disappointed with power compared to modified restos. Todays technology makes power quite cheap and reliable and I see no issue with stroking, cam changes, ignition upgrades, roller setups, performance carbs, ect.
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post #11 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 10:37 AM
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No offense at all intended to you, Tom, but this whole idea just made my soul say "ugh". Not that it's a terrible idea or anything, just the machinations and hoop-jumping for this level of show remind me of the axiom: "anything worth doing is worth overdoing". I think that would apply well to concors/points judging for shows in general. If it's a cool car, that's enough for me, but this wouldn't be the first time my standards were too low for the conversation, lol.

Ultimately, none of this contributes to the driving enjoyment of the car, so I just can't compute.
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post #12 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 10:52 AM
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I can really admire the all factory original cars out there; it's pretty cool to see one that looks as it did sitting on the showroom floor in 1960-whatever. I also have a soft spot for Mustangs done the way Mustangs typically were when I first fell in love with them. By then the early Mustangs were several years old, and modifying them was nothing to even think twice about. High-rise, Holley 4-barrel, headers, fat tires in back, traction bars, tach on the steering column, whatever it took to win the semi-informal drag races that took place at nearly every street light back in the mid to late 70s.

That said -- I know diddly about shows and judging, and really personally don't care. I'm not building a show car, but I do understand the desire to compete.

Never seen a Caddy 500 in a Yugo, but I did know of one humongous De Ville with drag slicks tucked discreetly inside the fender skirts that would severely embarrass most cars. The biggest sleeper I've ever seen. Same guy now has a nice stock looking '77 Coupe Deville that runs in the 12s with nitrous...
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post #13 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 289fan View Post
I posted this in the Concours forum, recognizing as keepers of time capsules, their buy-in to an idea is critical. Let's face it, that well from which concours and survivor cars are drawn is rapidly going dry, significantly for vintage cars. A discussion about color changes on a SAAC concours participant, ( Color Change on Judged concours ) brought out the discussion of cars that aren't quite concours. I believe the current show classes leave a significant number of people from showing their cars, that would otherwise attract a lot of discussion and appreciation for what the cars were, when they were. Let me throw something out there, along these lines... to attract those cars not otherwise concours correct, but faithful representations of their time and owners... a Period-Correct class. To prevent it from just being a Concours spill-over, require no less than 2 major and 3 minor visible, owner-performed modifications. All modifications must be appropriate to within a + - 5 year window of production. Owners must have documentation of the part/modification being available and practiced within the window. Anything not documented or outside that window is a deduction, or basis to not be in the class, i.e. too many modifications.

While I have thought of benefits to the club, owners, and how to determine definitions for this, I will leave that to further discussion. Thoughts?
I think I understand what you're suggesting, but I don't understand WHY you're suggesting it. There's concours, and then there's everything else. And in MCA, there are classes for those already. So I'm a bit confused as to where you're going with this.
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post #14 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 12:10 PM
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Maybe I'm not understanding, but doesn't the MCA have classes for modified cars, and for driven cars? I think there's a class in there for most anything..

And the AACA has a "driver's participation" class that's pretty much a catch-all, as well as the HPOF class (Historical Preservation of Original Features) that is great for un-restored original examples.

So it seems to me that it's handled. And I truly hope that judged classes like MCA Concours and AACA (all classes except Driver's Participation and HPOF) remain true and do not get watered-down, because it's IMPORTANT to maintain standards of originality and condition to pass-thru from generation to generation to generation. It shouldn't get lost..
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post #15 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-11-2019, 01:21 PM
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I am not sure what you're asking for but going back to thread you linked to:

Quote:
Going forward , A car that is Color changed entered in SAAC Premiere (D1) will not be allowed to be judged period! It will be be downgraded to SAAC Concours! However in SAAC Concourse (D2) a color change will be allowed to be judged as long as its a color that was available for that year car! BUT that car will not be eligible for a gold award at all and will basicly start as a Silver and go from there.

We feel this rule is one that will help SAAC protect the integrity of the Marque and SAAC Judging
That sounds reasonable to me.

The person that threw a hissy fit trying to get their wrong color, non-Shelby color car, into the top concours class is a twat, should be named and shamed and shunned forever by that community. When it comes to "car guys" these are among the absolute worst. Delusional, egotistical snobs.

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