Dreaded over heating topic again...I know guys sorry - Page 3 - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #31 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 08:43 PM
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I am not a fan of electric fans, but the Taurus fan/shroud moves some air. More than most aftermarket. I had clearance issues trying to install on my son’s 68 with 200/6. It would have been overkill in that application. Not sure if your 65 will have the same clearance issues. I did have one laying around, but loaned it to a friend for his model A. He has not used it yet. It’s been 2 years.


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Last edited by coupster; 04-26-2019 at 08:47 PM.
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post #32 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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@coupster stepping up to a bigger radiator is definitely a last resort. I would have to change mounts for the condenser and everything. I am going to trim the shroud when I pull the fan for a new clutch. I think a Pusher fan on the front pushing like an additional 1000-1200 cfm should be enough.
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post #33 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 10:05 PM
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Alrighty then...

1. I doubt whether you have the "hot idle compensator" that was originally installed on A/C-equipped cars to increase the curb idle at high ambient temperatures so you are probably suffering from a lack of airflow and coolant flow at idle.

2. Using ported vacuum for a spark advance signal you're not adding any spark advance at idle so the lean fuel mixture (closed throttles) is still burning when the exhaust valve opens, wasting heat that could have been converted to linear motion. The use of ported vacuum or "timed spark" was a method of increasing exhaust gas temperatures to lower hydrocarbon emissions.

So, either swap your vacuum advance over to full manifold vacuum or add a thermostat housing with a bung and add a DVCV (distributor vacuum control valve) to modulate the vacuum advance signal based on coolant temperature (IMHO that only complicates things so....). Run as much initial spark advance as the engine will tolerate. Make sure your distributor advance curves (centrifugal and vacuum) are correct (I recommend Dan Nolan at The Mustang Barn for a recurve). This should improve your engine cooling by reducing the heat load that must be handled by the radiator.

With regard to the hot idle compensator there are really only a couple options. While the HIC for the Autolite 4100 is readily available and inexpensive, the one used on 2V and factory Holley applications is rare and, when available, wicked expensive. The option is to use a DVCV as a HIC by plumbing it into the cooling system somehow. This can be done by drilling/tapping the intake manifold, the heater outlet fitting in the intake manifold (won't work on later models using a heater control valve), using an adaptor in the upper radiator hose, adding a bung too the radiator upper tank or using a thermostat housing with a bung. Instead of plumbing the DVCV to modulate the vacuum advance signal, it is used to vent vacuum from a full manifold vacuum source to the atmosphere when the coolant gets very hot. This can be done using either a 2-port or 3-port DVCV and an aquarium air line filter.

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post #34 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 11:28 PM
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Ok, I would go for two things:
1) New radiator cap.
2) Back timing down to 15-16*. 18* is really high for a stock cam, 14 is more the norm on today's pump gas but you probably wouldn't get enough total timing if you set it for that.

It is surprising how frequently bad radiator caps are overlooked. I know because I overlooked my bad radiator cap for like a year once. I had the same symptoms - temps would slowly creep up at idle, but once under way the car was totally fine. I flushed the radiator, put on a new rebuilt HiPo pump, screwed around with timing, and got no improvement. Then I found another cap laying around in my parts bin, put it on the car, and lo and behold... rock steady at 195* now, all the time. With AC on she'll hit 202* in traffic in the summer. I felt really dumb after that one.

FWIW, my 289 is bored 0.040" over and has a pretty rowdy cam. I am running a nearly-stock cooling system - 195*F thermostat, stock shroud, stock fan clutch+fan, stock HiPo water pump. The only aftermarket part is my radiator, which is a 2-row aluminum that is the same thickness as the old radiator. Only reason I've got an aluminum radiator in my car is because it was on sale when I blew the stock 3-row brass radiator full of rust (put it on someone else's car, their motor was full of rust). It ran fine with the brass radiator, and it runs fine with the aluminum radiator. Never runs hot, even in the worst of Texas temps.
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post #35 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-27-2019, 07:17 AM
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Most everything I would advise has been covered, manifold vac. advance, hot idle compensator (by the way, if you keep an eye on eBay, you can score one of these for reasonable money sometimes, and I actually have a few in surplus, because they are hard to get when you need one), Thermocure, etc.

I know the general sentiment is that thermostats cannot fix an overheating problem, and I took that fact for granted as well. I was reading somewhere a comment about using a high-flow thermostat (one with three crossbars on the front instead of two). I really wasn’t familiar with those, and figured all thermostats were the same other than temp ratings and quality of manufacture. The person was insistent that these was the only way to fly, and made a huge difference. I was building an engine at the time and needed to replace my intake manifold gaskets on another car, so I figured I’d just try a couple of these for the heck of it. My car with the manifold gasket leak had always run on the verge of hot. In the summer, the stock temp gauge would creep up to the P in TEMP more frequently than I liked. In IR thermometer said I was about 212-220* at my upper radiator hose. (By the way, this is a concours, low-miles C-code 66 coupe, automatic, no A/C, had Ford 195* factory thermostat).

I used the Mr. Gasket 4364 180* High Performance Thermostat:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BWAPA2..._sCdXCbVF1G9NT

Keep in mind that this was the only variable I changed. For the first time ever, my car runs very cool, arguably too much so. The gauge never even reaches the half-way mark, and generally hangs out between T and E of TEMP. I estimate this has reduced my engine temps by at least 15*, maybe 20*, and I’d have never thought it could.

I thought about all the overheating threads that come up in the forum and I believe that this should at least be included in one’s quest to cool things down. If it works like it did for me, it really has to help.
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post #36 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-27-2019, 09:25 AM
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I think at this point it would be really helpful if you posted a picture of your setup, especially because you mention a custom shroud.

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post #37 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-27-2019, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA_cob View Post
@GT289 yes I meant Flokooler sorry I was writing off the top of my head and confused the name. And there is no cast iron pump for my engine. It's an early 65 289. It came from the factory with the aluminum pump, no back plate. It's the same pump used on the 289 HiPo clear into 67. That pump had a cast impeller with 6 vanes. I had a parts store pump on it with a stamped star shaped impeller. The Flokooler is real similar to the original. (Which I no longer have). My parts store pump literally came apart on me two weeks ago. So I replaced it with the flokooler. Just curious by what you mean has to be changed to make an aluminum radiator work. I had a three row copper radiator on it until about 6 months ago, and it never cooled. I have seen cooler temps since adding it. Just with the AC added it doesn't seem to be enough.
It's your air flow through the core(s) that is the issue. (two of them, since you have a condenser)

I've told this story before about my experience with a pricey aluminum radiator.... only thing replaced, when my 4-row copper brass bit the dust.
For me aluminum was a complete joke. Took awhile to heat up and then the engine temps stayed up, way up. And back in the pits, the temps didn't
come back down. I don't like to see any temp gauges nearly pegged all the way on "H" when I'm on the track. I got home from the track, removed
that POS, sourced a copper/brass 4 row and magically my temps went right back down to where they normally were. No changes other than a radiator.....
Fortunately I was able to get someone to take the aluminum off my hands- he seemed overjoyed to get it actually, because the rumor is aluminum
radiators magically cool better. Total BS.

If I had to guess (not being a thermal engineer) my thinking is that aluminum doesn't dissipate & absorb heat
at the same rate as copper or brass (which I know is factual) and MIGHT have different airflow requirements
across the core. There are some differences in the various year Mustangs as far as what size radiator you can
fit- therefore differences in air flow through that area.
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post #38 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-27-2019, 12:00 PM
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I have been reading these overheating threads for months, if not years. I am still amazed when I read the issues people have trying to cool a virtually stock small block Ford. It seems that the more "high performance" cooling components people add, the worse these SBFs seem to perform. High RPM performance racing engines are a different story!

OP- Do you know how the engine cools with stock components? Most owners can't remember the last time their cooling system was stock. I guess you could call it "technology creep". Over the years, they change one component, then another, until over time it doesn't even vaguely resemble a factory system.

I run a mild 302 with aluminum heads and intake. It is a factory A/C car with power steering. Every component in the cooling system is an "over the counter" stock replacement part with the exception of the fan. I opted for the 7 blade mechanical version (a Ford part) installed by the original engine builder. I run the stock (small) shroud on a 3 row copper/brass factory style radiator and 180* thermostat. In the 110 degree summer heat, I can run the air and never see the temp climb past 210 degrees. I've owned the car for 23 years and am on my second engine. Both motors have run the exact same cooling system components and neither has ever overheated. I run a 50/50 coolant/water mix with no other additives.

IMO, a properly operating and maintained stock system is more than capable of adequately cooling a SBF. If not, it's the source of the heat (engine) that's the problem, not the cooling system!.

BTW- On the current motor, I have tested and compared three fan combinations. In order of cooling efficiency, they are:

1. 7 blade mechanical ( CF-D2VE-8600-AC ) stock 390cid factory flex fan

2, 6 blade mechanical - loud whooshing noise/good air movement

3. 6 blade clutch fan - greater temperature fluctuations (+/- 15*)

Yes, the 7 blade is the largest and heaviest of the three, but the negatives are more than offset by the positives. I see no performance difference in the three systems.


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post #39 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-27-2019, 02:06 PM
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Instead of just liking several of the above posts I thought I would reiterate the suggestion to change the vacuum advance to manifold vacuum. Cars were set up using manifold vacuum for many years. The switch to ported vacuum came about as an early smog remedy. It added heat and reduced hydrocarbons at idle. This was done prior to catalytic converters and was complemented by AIR injection pumps added in the late 60's.


Start here before throwing $$$'s at a solution.

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post #40 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-27-2019, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike the old grump View Post
Instead of just liking several of the above posts I thought I would reiterate the suggestion to change the vacuum advance to manifold vacuum. Cars were set up using manifold vacuum for many years. The switch to ported vacuum came about as an early smog remedy. It added heat and reduced hydrocarbons at idle. This was done prior to catalytic converters and was complemented by AIR injection pumps added in the late 60's.


Start here before throwing $$$'s at a solution.
Already did that as noted in one of my last posts and I am seeing some improvement with temps hovering at around 220-225 when idling and AC on.
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post #41 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-27-2019, 04:03 PM Thread Starter
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@rhutt the last time the engine was stock was last year. I had a stock three row, the stock 4 blade fan, 195 degree thermostat, the stock water pump (which is actually a hi flow from factory). The car severely over heated then (would run about 215 on the highway and then shoot up past 230 quickly at idle, in traffic, stoplight etc. I didn't even have AC at that time. But I changed to the aluminum radiator and clutch fan and temps went down to 195-200 on the highway and maybe 210 in traffic. So yes I do know and remember when my car was "stock". I am really not far from stock as it is. Just the radiator and flokooler water pump which is essentially stock pump with improved impeller over the parts store OEM pump it replaced. With the addition of AC and the added core to push air through and cool is the issue and causing it to run hot again. Also as you noted it could be the source. I have flushed it several times and got a lot of rust out of it. Three rounds of thermocure seems to have helped. But short of pulling the engine and popping freeze plugs and rodding out the passages. I also have no idea if the engine has been rebuilt or bored over. I however has great compression and doesn't use a drop of oil.

Last edited by PA_cob; 04-27-2019 at 04:17 PM.
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post #42 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
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Question. Can a bad alternator contribute to overheating? Went to start my car this morning and it wouldn't start. Fortunately I just purchased a 2012 Explorer XLT a couple of days ago so I was able to drive it this morning. After getting home checked on my mustang. With the car off the battery read 11.89 volts. I jumped it off and tested again and it read 13.1. Increasing the idle speed to around 2000 saw it drop to 12.7. I am pretty sure that optimal voltage should be 13.5-14.5 when the car is running. Previously the alternator was putting out 14.5 volts. It's a 3g 130 amp unit. I got it used from the pick and pull place out of late model mustang. I am thinking it is giving up the ghost and is time to replace with a new one. But was just wondering if this in some way could be a source of my overheating symptoms.
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post #43 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 08:36 PM
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Q. Can a bad alternator contribute to overheating?

A. Sure, if it seizes up and shreds the belt to the water pump.

Q. With the car off the battery read 11.89 volts.

A. The battery is discharged. Fully charged, at 80*F voltage should be 12.65v fully charged.

Q. I am pretty sure that optimal voltage should be 13.5-14.5 when the car is running.

A. Unless the field winding is fully energized the alternator will only produce enough current to satisfy the load placed on it. "Full-fielded" the alternator should produce 13.7-14.2vDC at 1,500 rpm with the headlights "On", although this is just a "quick check". The alternator output really should be checked with a carbon pile tester (and a fully charged battery).

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post #44 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 09:53 PM Thread Starter
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@Woodchuck the alternator has consistently put out 14.5 volts. The fact that it is not. And my battery is dead, leads me believe that it's on it's way to failing completely soon. Nothing was left on in the car and I did notice yesterday day that it seemed a little sluggish to start.
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post #45 of 152 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 10:29 PM
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Another thing that might help is to add a product like Water Wetter to your coolant. We ran it all the time in our Trans-Am series Mustangs. Believe me, a 700hp 310 cubic inch small block can put out a lot of heat!

It works at the molecular level giving the coolant better contact to metal surfaces allowing everything work more efficiently. I think it's a Red Line product now. VP makes something like it too. It really does work. I run it in all of my water cooled cars.

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