brand new 408w binding/won't turn by hand - Vintage Mustang Forums
 23Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 01:57 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 27
brand new 408w binding/won't turn by hand

Throwing together my 408w and I seem to be having binding issues. I am using main cap studs. Part numbers I am using are as follows:

crank: 4-351W-4000-6200
rods: 2-350-6200-2100 *yes, these are chevy rods. Decided to use the 2.1 rod journal. matches crank
main studs/girdle: MSS-1020
using clevite tri metal standard size bearings used for crank and rods (upper and lower bearing halves put in correct places)

using icon pistons if that matters?

heads, timing chain, etc not installed so no compression to fight.

assembly internally balanced and rings file fit by Arlington Machine Shop. The man I spoke with notified me that the tolerances are on the tight side but should work great he assured me. Also said I can use 10w-30 as I intended.
--------
here's what i know: rotating assembly is stiff and must be turned with breaker bar with main caps "snug" but rotates smoothly. When main caps are fully torqued (90ft pds in 2 steps with arp moly lube and a dab of red thread sealer(*optional in DSS instructions)) it will not turn with breaker bar+cheater bar. Is this normal? All parts are brand new and I have heavily coated every bearing in engine assembly lube and cleaned everything prior to assembly.
1968Stallion is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 05:13 AM
Senior Member
Supporting Member
 
supershifter2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Frum Hear Two Their Eventually
Posts: 10,716
its too tight. you should be able to rotate it easily by the balancer bolt with a standard length 1/2" ratchet.

supershifter2 < !
supershifter2 is online now  
post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 07:35 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: FL
Posts: 558
Are your rods facing the right way? Some H-beam rods and bearings have a bigger chamfers on the crank side.

http://engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ416_50-54.pdf
ldouble619 is offline  
 
post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 08:41 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,767
Have you checked the bearing clearances with Plastigage ?
rpm likes this.

'65 A-code coupe, T-10 4-speed, 8" 3.25 limited slip
stephen_wilson is offline  
post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 10:53 AM
Senior Member
 
blueovalfan68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: SoCal in Fairfax, VA
Posts: 436
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1968Stallion View Post
Throwing together my 408w and I seem to be having binding issues. I am using main cap studs. Part numbers I am using are as follows:

crank: 4-351W-4000-6200
rods: 2-350-6200-2100 *yes, these are chevy rods. Decided to use the 2.1 rod journal. matches crank
main studs/girdle: MSS-1020
using clevite tri metal standard size bearings used for crank and rods (upper and lower bearing halves put in correct places)

using icon pistons if that matters?

heads, timing chain, etc not installed so no compression to fight.

assembly internally balanced and rings file fit by Arlington Machine Shop. The man I spoke with notified me that the tolerances are on the tight side but should work great he assured me. Also said I can use 10w-30 as I intended.
--------
here's what i know: rotating assembly is stiff and must be turned with breaker bar with main caps "snug" but rotates smoothly. When main caps are fully torqued (90ft pds in 2 steps with arp moly lube and a dab of red thread sealer(*optional in DSS instructions)) it will not turn with breaker bar+cheater bar. Is this normal? All parts are brand new and I have heavily coated every bearing in engine assembly lube and cleaned everything prior to assembly.
Definitely not normal. Were the main caps align honed at all? That might be the issue. Had a similar experience.
Woodchuck likes this.

-Chris

'68 Mustang
347ci that has a lot of neat stuff in it
T5 manual trans, alum driveshaft, 9" w/3.70 gears
Suspension parts from SoT, Global West, Maier Racing, and a few others. Works for me!
TCP manual rack (love it)
EPAS (Love this the most)
VWW V45 wheels (like these too)
SoT 13" brakes (stopping is good)
And I finally got a paint job!
blueovalfan68 is offline  
post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 11:02 AM
Senior Member
 
j persons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Natchitoches, LA. at the edge of the swamp
Posts: 3,786
Did the crankshaft rotate prior to the con rods being installed? If so, you probably have a problem with the con rods being too tight on the crank or the pistons/rings seizing in the bores.
rpm likes this.

John

The Fauxstang. Dynacorn 67 fastback. Dart SHP 363, Close ratio Magnum 6 speed, 3.70 Eaton Truetrac in a fabricated full floater 9", SorT coil over suspension. Still in pieces.
'14 SHO with most all the bells and whistles. Stock for now.
F-150 SCab daily driver
j persons is offline  
post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 05:19 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: far east north corner of Texas
Posts: 6,440
Garage
NOTTA NORMAL. Somezing ist frackenzed.



I think everybody already covered it but my VW seized up just like that on brand new assembly. I had a miss boxed set of rod bearings for one rod. The box said one thing and the rod bearings said something else. You can systematically find the problem by installing one set of bearing shells at a time, spin the engine until it seizes and thats your problem area. I could be a journal was not cut right or wrong bearings. Sometimes the thrust bearing is a suspect area.


65 2+2, 331, C4 presently apart for complete a restore
1979 Ford F150 custom, 302, C4, AC, tilt wheel, main transportation

Last edited by macstang; 05-25-2019 at 05:24 PM.
macstang is offline  
post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 05:25 PM
Senior Member
 
Turnall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Dothan, AL
Posts: 4,239
If it rotates "smoothly" before the mains are torqued to spec but doesn't afterwards, I would start by trying one main at a time to see which one is doing the binding or if maybe you have the wrong set installed (ie, they all bind).

I have learned to rotate the crank (at least some) after doing any torquing before moving to the next part to be torqued...You know right away if something binds and what it is.

Allen
Huskinhano, j persons, rpm and 3 others like this.

My build thread: Allen's Build Thread

My go fast build thread: Go Fast Build Thread

Last edited by Turnall; 05-25-2019 at 05:28 PM.
Turnall is offline  
post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 05:54 PM
Senior Member
 
gregb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Redondo Beach CA
Posts: 2,391
You may need to have it align honed with the switch to main studs. What is the bearing clearance? The main caps themselves, they didn’t get mixed or swapped around did they?

69 Mach One, 428CJ, 5 Speed, 3.91's.
gregb is offline  
post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 06:34 PM
Moderator
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 8,148
Garage
Good advice by Allen. Install one thing at a time and test. Way too tight though. I had a similar issue with a 289 recently while trying to use a Canton main stud girdle I previously used on another 289 build. When the rear main was torqued, everything locked. So I decided to abandon the girdle. Everything works nicely without it.

Regards,
Patrick
patrickstapler is offline  
post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 09:19 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 27
main caps were align honed. Will double check on rod direction. I suppose based off what Idouble619 said, I should have 4 of each facing one way or the other. Had machine shop connect rods to pistons because the pistons use spiral locks.

No, I did not plastigauge. I know some manufacturers have minor defects etc but I figured the $$$ I spent would mean quality control.

crank would rotate by itself before rods were installed

I will check and reply on thread.
1968Stallion is offline  
post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 09:26 PM
Moderator
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 8,148
Garage
Do NOT ever assume anything. Either pay a extremely reputable shop to check these things or check them yourself.
kenash, Rebel Racing and 69bosssvt like this.

Regards,
Patrick
patrickstapler is offline  
post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 09:44 PM
Senior Member
 
Turnall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Dothan, AL
Posts: 4,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1968Stallion View Post
here's what i know: rotating assembly is stiff and must be turned with breaker bar with main caps "snug" but rotates smoothly. When main caps are fully torqued (90ft pds in 2 steps with arp moly lube and a dab of red thread sealer(*optional in DSS instructions)) it will not turn with breaker bar+cheater bar..
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1968Stallion View Post
crank would rotate by itself before rods were installed
So are you now saying it is binding when the rods are torqued? That's not what you said before...

Allen

My build thread: Allen's Build Thread

My go fast build thread: Go Fast Build Thread
Turnall is offline  
post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2019, 10:50 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: far east north corner of Texas
Posts: 6,440
Garage
Once you get this straightened out, regarding the rods, look closely at the big ends. Each rod has a small chamfered side which is not much more than a round over and the other side has a big chamfer in it. Each of these larger chamfered sides faces the crank side when the rods go on the journals. At the same time you have to make sure your pistons are pointing forward. I always pair them up and even label the cylinders they go in before hand on top of the pistons with a sharpie. Its kind of easy to get the things twisted around.


Be sure to remember to set your thrust bearing.


65 2+2, 331, C4 presently apart for complete a restore
1979 Ford F150 custom, 302, C4, AC, tilt wheel, main transportation
macstang is offline  
post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-26-2019, 07:38 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Amish Wonderland of Central PA
Posts: 645
Its definitely time to take it apart and and check the reassembly step by step.

On a freshly installed crank with lubed bearings and then torqued crank a with no rods should spin very freely when rotating the counterweight by hand. There should be no bind in any part of the rotation. You should also have a small amount of for and aft free play (did you properly seat the crank thrust bearing?) Main caps need to be properly placed and in the correct orientation.

Installed and lubed crank with rods attached and torqued down should spin freely (once it starts rotating) with 25lbs or slightly via a beam torque wrench on the front off the crank. That's including a lubed rear main seal and wrist pins.

Dennis

65' Stang Street/Strip:



Dart 434W NA, G101A 4 Spd, 4:56 rear, 93 octane pump gas pushing 3550lbs. [email protected]
dennis111 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Vintage Mustang Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Front turn signal not working keitheva Vintage Mustang Forum 4 05-08-2019 11:28 AM
Turn Signal Issue with 1966 Mustang tang66 Vintage Mustang Forum 4 01-13-2019 02:55 PM
Horn / Turn Signal Problem Hopp1 Vintage Mustang Forum 4 10-19-2018 10:38 PM
Help with turn signal wiring danfio Vintage Mustang Forum 5 06-30-2018 11:07 AM
68 Mustang Steering Column Turn Signal Swithc Pinout matthew75843 Vintage Mustang Forum 3 03-28-2018 12:00 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome