PMGR Starter - Help! - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 11:04 AM Thread Starter
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PMGR Starter - Help!

I recently decided to to swap to a PMGR style starter in my 1966 Coupe after having hot start issues. I read some reviews and and what i could find about these starters and found tons of info. I think there were some inexpensive late model options that would work, but wasn't sure and in the interest of time, i ordered a PA Performance model from CJ's. The starter showed up, install was a cinch. and when i turned the key, I hear the starter spin with no ring gear engagement. I boxed it up and shipped it back. (thank Goodness for PayPal return shipping reimbursement). I called PA Performance directly and got their recommendation on the model i need for my application. I order, the starter showed up, install was a cinch, and when i turned the key, I hear the starter spin with no ring gear engagement. Both times, the starter was wired according to the PA instructions.

My application is as follows:
1966 Mustang Coupe 289 w/ 4spd toploader - drivetrain is all stock, clutch, ringgear, etc.
Ford Factory Starter Part # - C30F-1131-A

#1 PA Performance Starter - Model 1806
https://www.paperformance.com/mini-pmgr-starter-1806/

#2 PA Performance Starter - Model 1881
https://www.paperformance.com/mini-pmgr-starter-1881/

Does anyone have a recommendation on which model I should use or what my issue is? I'm open to parts store models as well, if there is something there that will work. I'm in Phx, AZ if that matters.

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 11:28 AM
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Read this thread.

https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/v...l#post10064538

VMF Build Thread - 1969 Shelby GT350 Hertz rebuild Gallery
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post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 11:37 AM
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I'm thinking it's not wired correctly. The reason, I state this, I run the same starter purchased from PA Performance and installed in '08. My block is a 289 (although a 5 bolt). My model is an 1806 and was correct for an auto tranny. However, when I later converted to a T5z, it still works. The 1881 is for a manual, as in your case a top loader, it should be correct too.
It appears you have power to the starter motor and not the Bendix drive and it's not engaging and that's a wiring connection issue. Therefore, re-visit your wiring schematic that came with the units and follow it carefully. Keep us posted with your findings so that others may learn from this.

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post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 12:49 PM Thread Starter
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GT350H and kenash, thank you for your responses!

This is basically how i wired it. I moved my big thick starter cable to the positive side battery on solenoid and then moved the tiny one they supply to the starter side of solenoid. Looking at the link you posted, my starter is a perfect fit in the starter registry hole. I guess I need to take it apart again, count the teeth on the gear, and measure the depth.


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post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awhtx View Post
Holy thread revival Batman! An 11 year old thread revived today.


Here's the answer, plain and simple.
If you have a 157T flywheel or 157T flexplate you need the so called "automatic" starter with the long snout and exposed drive gear.
If you have a 164T flywheel or 164T flexplate you need the so called "manual" starter with the short snout and the recessed drive gear.



There used to be a diagram with the difference in the location of the ring gear between the 2 different tooth count flywheels/flexplates explained on a Bronco forum.


When is this website going to have "stickies" so we don't have to explain this every time the question comes up.


Here it is. I hope it shows up.
https://imgur.com/a/BurQ2
I think you might need the "long snout" starter for the 157T flywheel or 157T flexplate if the gear on the starter is not hitting or engaging the teeth on the flexplate/flywheel at all.

Note the starter snout length in this document: https://imgur.com/a/BurQ2

Also see: https://static.speedwaymotors.com/im...f/91067433.pdf
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post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 602Raptor View Post
This is basically how i wired it. I moved my big thick starter cable to the positive side battery on solenoid and then moved the tiny one they supply to the starter side of solenoid. Looking at the link you posted, my starter is a perfect fit in the starter registry hole. I guess I need to take it apart again, count the teeth on the gear, and measure the depth.
You definitely have it wired correctly because that's how I've got it in my 65 with a Toploader. I bought my starter from DB Electric, and haven't had any starter issues with it.



I've started a blog about my car and adventures: http://65mustangfun.blogspot.com/

1965 Fastback, 289, Toploader 4 Speed, owned by me since June 1980. Originally a C-code with a C-4. 5R09C16****
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post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeFred View Post
You definitely have it wired correctly because that's how I've got it in my 65 with a Toploader. I bought my starter from DB Electric, and haven't had any starter issues with it.
Do you recall which model you bought from them?
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post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 602Raptor View Post
Do you recall which model you bought from them?
It's probably the one that's currently out of stock I'm running an 11" flywheel with 164 teeth.



I've started a blog about my car and adventures: http://65mustangfun.blogspot.com/

1965 Fastback, 289, Toploader 4 Speed, owned by me since June 1980. Originally a C-code with a C-4. 5R09C16****
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post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 05:37 PM
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You need the 1806 for automatic. The reason is that the automatic starter is for both automatic and manual transmission using the smaller diameter 157 tooth flywheels. The other is for automatic and manual with 164 tooth flywheels.

Later on Ford got their act together and settled on the smaller 157 tooth starter design. Iím running a $30 97 V6 T5 164 tooth starter in my 66 with a 4 speed. I also have the PMGR starter that came with my GT40P and that fits as well

Tom

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post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 05:38 PM Thread Starter
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I went out and took a bunch of measurements.

I have the 157T Flywheel where the ring gear is on the trans side
The original starter has 9 teeth where the PMGR has 10

The snout on the original is 2.25" long
The snout on the PMGR is 1.75" long

Please remember that I first purchased the auto version with the longer, identical length snout and that had the same behavior. I'm wondering if the drive gear is too small. A link to the proper replacement would be super helpful. I also may take the original to the parts store and compare to late model (92-95) mustang stuff as I really want the PMGR to work. I'm not sure why I'm having so much trouble with this, though my research shows that the starter that came out, C30F-11131-A is for an automatic, so maybe it really is this confusing.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg starter.jpg (595.8 KB, 10 views)
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post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskinhano View Post
You need the 1806 for automatic. The reason is that the automatic starter is for both automatic and manual transmission using the smaller diameter 157 tooth flywheels. The other is for automatic and manual with 164 tooth flywheels.

Later on Ford got their act together and settled on the smaller 157 tooth starter design. Iím running a $30 97 V6 T5 164 tooth starter in my 66 with a 4 speed. I also have the PMGR starter that came with my GT40P and that fits as well
If I go to the parts store with my original and ask for a 1997 V6 Mustang with 5 speed starter, I may be all set?
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post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 602Raptor View Post
If I go to the parts store with my original and ask for a 1997 V6 Mustang with 5 speed starter, I may be all set?
I agree, it appears you're wired correctly. I checked my against what you stated, as has others,
So, pull the starter and check the location of the ring gear, as was previously mentioned, if, you haven't already done so.

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post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenash View Post
So, pull the starter and check the location of the ring gear, as was previously mentioned, if, you haven't already done so.
I did exactly that. Ring gear is closest to the trans, consistent with the 157t flywheel.
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post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskinhano View Post
You need the 1806 for automatic. The reason is that the automatic starter is for both automatic and manual transmission using the smaller diameter 157 tooth flywheels. The other is for automatic and manual with 164 tooth flywheels.

Later on Ford got their act together and settled on the smaller 157 tooth starter design. Iím running a $30 97 V6 T5 164 tooth starter in my 66 with a 4 speed. I also have the PMGR starter that came with my GT40P and that fits as well
color me confused, What ring gear do you have ? I would have thought a 157?? Does the 97 v6 T-5 Mustang have a 164 flywheel ?


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post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 602Raptor View Post
I have the 157T Flywheel where the ring gear is on the trans side

You have a 157T flywheel with the ring gear on the transmission side of the flywheel. If the PMGR starter you bought is the one on the right in the photo you bought the wrong starter. That is the starter for a 164T flywheel which has the ring gear on the engine side of the flywheel.
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